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	<title>Comments on: Allow drivers to use the hard shoulder</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/</link>
	<description>Conservative Party Member of Parliament for Wokingham</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9582</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9582</guid>
		<description>I would suggest fitting HGV's with a device allowing them to travel faster than 56mph when they are unladen. On a 44ton truck there's a huge difference in stopping distances without a load, so I don't believe there'd be any significant safety compromise. This would allow the faster empty lorries to pass much quicker and free up the middle lane of the motorway significantly. Particularly as, for some unknown reason, many motorists seem to have a pathological aversion to the outside lane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would suggest fitting HGV&#8217;s with a device allowing them to travel faster than 56mph when they are unladen. On a 44ton truck there&#8217;s a huge difference in stopping distances without a load, so I don&#8217;t believe there&#8217;d be any significant safety compromise. This would allow the faster empty lorries to pass much quicker and free up the middle lane of the motorway significantly. Particularly as, for some unknown reason, many motorists seem to have a pathological aversion to the outside lane.</p>
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		<title>By: Oli Rhys</title>
		<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9572</link>
		<dc:creator>Oli Rhys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9572</guid>
		<description>I have a big worry with moving roads over to the private sector.

The private sector works very well where it is left alone, but as soon as it is given a monopoly, then it is just as bad as the public sector.  How would you ensure that the choice element, which is what keeps competition healthy, is maintained?

There is too many examples of the public sector moving services over to the private sector, but not removing the shackles of bureaucracy.  The reality of most of these projects is that the companies who take them over have a public sector mentality, regardless of their legal status.  

Capita and EDS are great examples of this.

So, with this in mind, it would possibly make more sense to lease the road to a company for 30 years, who have to look after it.  They offer usage of the road to the government on a annual contract.  Within this contract, there is a service level agreement  where the road cannot be closed for maintenance between 8-6 on any weekday.  If this is broken, then the value of the next contract can be negotiated, with the government having the option of not having to hire it!
The cost of this contract would be paid out of the road fund licence.

What do you think?

Reply: The idea of passing a route over to private management works best where there are alternative "free routes" to provide strong competition. Even where a route has some monopoly characteristics it is still likely to produce a better result. Monopoly price exploitation would be prevented by law/contract, whilst the pattern of incentives would encourage the franchise holder to keep the route open and in better condition for use to maximise revenue.
Your system would be better than the current arrangement, but I suspect leaving them free to decide on the timing and phasing of works would produce a better answer than yours , as they can obtain significant revenue by keeping the road open after 6pm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a big worry with moving roads over to the private sector.</p>
<p>The private sector works very well where it is left alone, but as soon as it is given a monopoly, then it is just as bad as the public sector.  How would you ensure that the choice element, which is what keeps competition healthy, is maintained?</p>
<p>There is too many examples of the public sector moving services over to the private sector, but not removing the shackles of bureaucracy.  The reality of most of these projects is that the companies who take them over have a public sector mentality, regardless of their legal status.  </p>
<p>Capita and EDS are great examples of this.</p>
<p>So, with this in mind, it would possibly make more sense to lease the road to a company for 30 years, who have to look after it.  They offer usage of the road to the government on a annual contract.  Within this contract, there is a service level agreement  where the road cannot be closed for maintenance between 8-6 on any weekday.  If this is broken, then the value of the next contract can be negotiated, with the government having the option of not having to hire it!<br />
The cost of this contract would be paid out of the road fund licence.</p>
<p>What do you think?</p>
<p>Reply: The idea of passing a route over to private management works best where there are alternative &#8220;free routes&#8221; to provide strong competition. Even where a route has some monopoly characteristics it is still likely to produce a better result. Monopoly price exploitation would be prevented by law/contract, whilst the pattern of incentives would encourage the franchise holder to keep the route open and in better condition for use to maximise revenue.<br />
Your system would be better than the current arrangement, but I suspect leaving them free to decide on the timing and phasing of works would produce a better answer than yours , as they can obtain significant revenue by keeping the road open after 6pm.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9413</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9413</guid>
		<description>It's well worth looking at York's response to congestion. Since no-one could imagine adding new roads (it would require demolishing bits of the medieval city), and since car numbers were rising along with the economy, they had a problem. They turned it over to the Maths dept of York University, who persuaded them to invest very heavily in traffic sensors. Many algorythms and packet-switching programmes later, the mathematicians produced a traffic-flow system for the city which is comprehensive and responsive. And it works - despite building no new roads, and traffic flow increasing, the city's congestion is markedly better now than it was ten years ago. A triumph for the mathematicians and brainpower. (Though not the market - Hayek would be surprised, and so am I.)

Second, North Yorkshire is one of only two police authoriites which has refused to put in rent-collecting speed cameras. Good for them! In their place, we have speed-sensors at village outskirts which, if you are speeding, flash up a polite request/reminder to keep to the limit. These are good things, because the message is effectively an invitation to help preserve the community, it is in a small way an invititation therefore to share in the community. So you slow down, and feel you have benefited mankind and yourself too. It is the polar opposite of a speed camera flashing you and then fining you. By criminalising you explicitly it expels you from the community.

Reply: Sounds good - thanks for the ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s well worth looking at York&#8217;s response to congestion. Since no-one could imagine adding new roads (it would require demolishing bits of the medieval city), and since car numbers were rising along with the economy, they had a problem. They turned it over to the Maths dept of York University, who persuaded them to invest very heavily in traffic sensors. Many algorythms and packet-switching programmes later, the mathematicians produced a traffic-flow system for the city which is comprehensive and responsive. And it works - despite building no new roads, and traffic flow increasing, the city&#8217;s congestion is markedly better now than it was ten years ago. A triumph for the mathematicians and brainpower. (Though not the market - Hayek would be surprised, and so am I.)</p>
<p>Second, North Yorkshire is one of only two police authoriites which has refused to put in rent-collecting speed cameras. Good for them! In their place, we have speed-sensors at village outskirts which, if you are speeding, flash up a polite request/reminder to keep to the limit. These are good things, because the message is effectively an invitation to help preserve the community, it is in a small way an invititation therefore to share in the community. So you slow down, and feel you have benefited mankind and yourself too. It is the polar opposite of a speed camera flashing you and then fining you. By criminalising you explicitly it expels you from the community.</p>
<p>Reply: Sounds good - thanks for the ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: a-tracy</title>
		<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9386</link>
		<dc:creator>a-tracy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9386</guid>
		<description>Another pet gripe is when they leave traffic warning signs up way after the congestion has cleared, so people take alternative routes through town centres unnecessarily.  I know of one instance a couple of weeks ago where a sign said 'lane closed ahead workforce in road' from the previous evening that had not been removed the following morning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another pet gripe is when they leave traffic warning signs up way after the congestion has cleared, so people take alternative routes through town centres unnecessarily.  I know of one instance a couple of weeks ago where a sign said &#8216;lane closed ahead workforce in road&#8217; from the previous evening that had not been removed the following morning.</p>
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		<title>By: a-tracy</title>
		<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9385</link>
		<dc:creator>a-tracy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9385</guid>
		<description>Oh gosh I hope they don't do this.

The M42 becomes a nightmare where they use the hardshoulder at peak times, they slow the traffic down to 40 mph (controlled by speed cameras) in too many unnecessary instances causing the traffic to bunch up and tailgate one another, which in my opinion is more dangerous.  At nearly every junction traffic has to move in and out which people don't like to do, so many tootle along in the middle with traffic then trying to pass on both sides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh gosh I hope they don&#8217;t do this.</p>
<p>The M42 becomes a nightmare where they use the hardshoulder at peak times, they slow the traffic down to 40 mph (controlled by speed cameras) in too many unnecessary instances causing the traffic to bunch up and tailgate one another, which in my opinion is more dangerous.  At nearly every junction traffic has to move in and out which people don&#8217;t like to do, so many tootle along in the middle with traffic then trying to pass on both sides.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9384</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9384</guid>
		<description>John,

I agree with you apart from two points: -

1) Use of hard shoulder.
I would worry about access to accidents for emergency vehicles...time is often a critical factor in survival rates.
2) Private road operators.
I feel we pay more than enough tax on cars etc to have the best road system in the world. There just needs to be political will to allow the money taken from car related tax to be put back into our transport network including roads. I have no problem with private operators running new roads providing there is an alternative for those that don't want to use them.

Speed limits in this country are set too low on many of our roads, however I support the Twenty miles an hour limit around schools....Just common sense. I cannot support the obsession with Forty miles an hour limits like the one suddenly imposed on the Forest Road from Warfield to the Wokingham side of Binfield.
The speed limits we have, were put in place over Forty years ago when vehicles were a lot less advanced than they are today. With anti lock braking and power steering our cars are far easier to stop and manoeuvre now than they were back then.
Motorways could have their limits raised much higher with a proviso in the legislation along the lines of, in an accident you must be able to justify your speed, For example, at three o'clock in the morning you could justify 120 mph on a clear dry road. However, during a downpour on the M4 at five o'clock in the afternoon, you could perhaps only justify a speed of 40mph. 

I would like to see fewer speed cameras, which many see as a stealth tax as they seem to be more about raising money than road safety. I like the illuminating signs like the one near the three frogs that flashes "30MPH Slow Down!" Research shows these have as much effect on slowing down traffic as speed cameras....They just don't generate the income.

I think the whole thing comes down to joined up thinking by government: if that is not an oxymoron in itself.


Reply: I agree they need to include stopping places beyond the hard shoulder and have snesible regulations over its use and speed.  I am happy with 20 mph outside schools when children are going in and out but see no reason to extend this to other times of day to holidays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>I agree with you apart from two points: -</p>
<p>1) Use of hard shoulder.<br />
I would worry about access to accidents for emergency vehicles&#8230;time is often a critical factor in survival rates.<br />
2) Private road operators.<br />
I feel we pay more than enough tax on cars etc to have the best road system in the world. There just needs to be political will to allow the money taken from car related tax to be put back into our transport network including roads. I have no problem with private operators running new roads providing there is an alternative for those that don&#8217;t want to use them.</p>
<p>Speed limits in this country are set too low on many of our roads, however I support the Twenty miles an hour limit around schools&#8230;.Just common sense. I cannot support the obsession with Forty miles an hour limits like the one suddenly imposed on the Forest Road from Warfield to the Wokingham side of Binfield.<br />
The speed limits we have, were put in place over Forty years ago when vehicles were a lot less advanced than they are today. With anti lock braking and power steering our cars are far easier to stop and manoeuvre now than they were back then.<br />
Motorways could have their limits raised much higher with a proviso in the legislation along the lines of, in an accident you must be able to justify your speed, For example, at three o&#8217;clock in the morning you could justify 120 mph on a clear dry road. However, during a downpour on the M4 at five o&#8217;clock in the afternoon, you could perhaps only justify a speed of 40mph. </p>
<p>I would like to see fewer speed cameras, which many see as a stealth tax as they seem to be more about raising money than road safety. I like the illuminating signs like the one near the three frogs that flashes &#8220;30MPH Slow Down!&#8221; Research shows these have as much effect on slowing down traffic as speed cameras&#8230;.They just don&#8217;t generate the income.</p>
<p>I think the whole thing comes down to joined up thinking by government: if that is not an oxymoron in itself.</p>
<p>Reply: I agree they need to include stopping places beyond the hard shoulder and have snesible regulations over its use and speed.  I am happy with 20 mph outside schools when children are going in and out but see no reason to extend this to other times of day to holidays.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9382</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/10/25/allow-drivers-to-use-the-hard-shoulder/#comment-9382</guid>
		<description>And more new motorways along the M6 Toll model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And more new motorways along the M6 Toll model.</p>
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