Nov 07 2007
Beware the English lion when it awakes
Yesterday in the Commons I reminded the government that balkanising England will not solve the injustice England suffers from lop sided devolution. Indeed, I urged them to drop creating regional governments around artificial European regions in England, as it is likely to annoy the English more rather than persuade us devolution is now fair.
The royal arms, symbol of a United Kingdom, quarter the 3 lions passant (walking with right paw raised) guardant (body to side, face to viewer) of England with the single lion rampant of Scotland (standing on one hindfoot with forefeet and tail raised). The Scottish National party wants to arouse the English lions from their casual indifference. They may think the English lions couchant, quiescent,somnolent today, but it is quite possible they will awaken and be fierce in exposing the injustices of the Union to England as the SNP continue to poke sticks into English eyes. That is clearly the SNP’s plan.
We English are tolerant,even long suffering, used to being attacked by all and sundry. The English spirit may be slow to arouse, but it is awesome once awoken. This government is making another one of its misjudgments in thinking England will continue to put up with the growing injustices of the devolution settlement, and will even tolerate the splitting of England into artificial regions. Cromwell tried that with the rule of the Major Generals, but it was not a constitutional innovation which survived the Restoration of the monarch. The broken promise on a referendum on the EU constitution combined with regional government may be the acts which do arouse the English lion. A UK government dominated by Scottish MPs will find it increasingly uncomfortable if they misread the English mood on these crucial constitutional issues.
John Redwood has been the Member of Parliament for Wokingham since 1987. First attending Kent College, Canterbury, he graduated from Magdalen College...
An interesting comment, but it highlights the need for more to be done in England to expose the tactics of the SNP in their bid to split the UK.
Raising the issue of the number of Scots in the Government in a negative way does nothing but reinforce the SNP’s argument. Another tack might be to highlight the important contribution Scots have always made to the UK as a whole.
The SNP are in government up here, but it is a minority government and the majority of Scots continue to support the idea of Scotland within the UK.
English politicians of whatever persuasion should not be fooled into playing the nationalist game.
Reply: No, we should not - but we do need to highlight the game, and we do need to speak up for England
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I thought you made an excellent contribution to the Queen’s speech debate yesterday. Thoughtful, knowledgeable and well presented - such a pity that there were so few there to hear it, particularly on the government benches where I think there were just two Labour MPs!
Reply: thank you - clearly a few more heard it outside the House, and it is on this site and in Hansard for those interested. I am trying to get the government to see that their highly spun highly party political approach is putting people off and doing damage to their cause as well as to the way we are governed.
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One way to address your constituitional quandary!
GIVE SCOTLAND HER INDEPENDENCE!
Lets see the English Lions (or leopards) rise and lets create 2 equal and independent nation states who can work together.
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John, you’re in danger of appearing to support fairness and equality for England!
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The SNP is not to blame for the English increasingly desiring independence.
It is MPs in England persistently telling us we need what we are not asking for, such as, English Votes on English Laws (EVEL) or a Grand Committee (God help us), and insisting we cannot have what we consistantly demand, an English Parliament.
Regionalisation of England will ensure Labour in England goes the way of the Conservatives in Scotland - oblivion.
In fact devolution is ensuring that Labour is going to oblivion in Scotland too.
If David Donald Cameron didn’t have so much Scottish blood clogging up his arteries and reducing the oxygen to his brain he might realise that he and the Conservative Party would govern for decades if they offered the English their own parliament.
Instead Cameron prefers to blame the English for everything and insult us by imposing Rifkind’s Grand Committee upon us.
Cameron said he “doesn’t want to be Prime Minister of England” and the way he is going his wish will come true.
If elected into office, will Cameron become Chairman Cameron of England’s Grand Committee?
The English have more self-respect to continue being snubbed in this fashion.
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I am a Scot living in England and have long wondered why the English put up with the devolution scam. When I pointed out the injustice, people agreed it was all wrong and I wish I could detect any sign that the people of England are at last going to speak, but I don’t know what will rouse them. Maybe most are all too apathetic or drummed into submission by the most authoritian government in my life time. Already we have put up with an erosion of freedom I could never have imagined, hunting ban, total smoking ban - not in the manifesto, freedom of speech etc. whether you agree or not I don’t think the government has any right to interfere in the private choices of individuals or businesses if they do not harm others. In the case of smoking I see no reason why smoking or non-smoking pubs could not have that as a condition of licence and people could choose to frequent and work in either. Even me, a one time political junkie despairs and no longer even feels like voting. Gordon Brown depresses me just looking at him and even more when he opens his mouth, at least Blair had style. Maybe ‘Englishness’ has been so diluted that people are no longer capable of seeing themselves as a coherent country. I hope I am wrong.
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You are certainly well appreciating the English problem.
According to Hansard you said you would “go a little further” than the idea of English votes on English issues and you liked the idea of “creating an English structure within the Westminster Parliament”.
Could you please elaborate on what you mean. The original “Westminster solution” put forward by Lord Baker did, I believe, envisage English MPs being able to elect an English Executive to which the UK government would devolve powers similar to those accorded to Scotland. To my mind this could be a good solution to the English and West Lothian Questions. Both need a solution as it is no use altering parliamentary procedure but leaving the UK government directly governing England by formulating and administering all English legislation. The compromise avoids having separate MPs in every constituency that exting MPs would hate and also avoid the argument about proportional representation in a separate English Parliament.
The Conservative Party has been avoiding this problem for far too long and it may be already too late to save the Union. But there could be enormous electoral advantage if they could come up with a really workable solution. Even in Scotland most Scots would like there to be an English Parliament so that they would not feel guilty about having achieved an unfair advantage.
A good immediate step for the party would be to join in debate in the English Constitutional Convention.
Reply: Yes, I would allow English MPs to create an executive structure within the Westminster Parliament to mirror the Scottish structure. I would suggest to Scotland that it might like to save money on MPs by doing the same as England - electing one set of MPs to both Westminster and Edinburgh at the same time, but I would regard this as a matter for Scotland to decide, not for the Union to impose given the obvious vested interests now created. I would envisage the English Parliament meeting a couple of days a week at Westminster, and the Union Parliament meeting 3 days a week, mirroring a couple of days a week for the Scottish Parliament.
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I posted a comment but it wasn’t published. Why was that?
Reply: If I do not publish a comment I send an email explaining why I have not done so. Otherwise I did not receive it.
As a general policy I do not usually publish comments that might be a libel on a named individual or institution, or contain language that might shock a family audience. I am not suggesting that your contribution did either of these things!
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Mr. Redwood,
Have we at last found an English Patriot among the Conservative’s?
It has been a long time in coming.
Every one knows the Labour Party’s hatred for England, but I expected a bit more from the Conservative’s.
Never mind we look as if we have found one in you,lets hope it spreads to the rest of your Party.
I would not hold my breath hoping Mr. Cameron will see the light.
What England must have is a Parliament,nothing less.
Good luck in your quest.
Eleanor Justice
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An observation on Mr Redwood’s comment that the rule of the Major Generals didn’t survive the Restoration. Actually it didn’t even survive the Protectorate, as Cromwell got rid of it almost as quickly as he’d brought it in. Regionalisation was no more suitable for England in the 1650s that it is now - and Cromwell was quick to correct the mistake.
reply: how true
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John, in your reply to Don Beadle you are actually repeating UKIP policy on the WLQ. Sign the Better Off Out pledge and I’ll put you on my Christmas card list.
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Thank you for your reply making it clear that you would propose that there would be an English Executive elected by English MPs with devolved powers like those accorded to Scotland. If you can persuade Ken Clarke and others to support this vital point and get it into a Conservative manifesto it would be a great step forward.
Maybe we can look forward to John Redwood as the first First Minister for England!!
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Can’t we just have straight forward equality with the Scots? A Parliament of our own.
This has nothing to do with the SNP and everything to do with me wanting equal statues with my fellow citizens.
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Certainly as you say, John, England needs a ‘voice’ as well as the right to decide its own domestic agenda as Scotland and Wales do. At the moment England is not only strapped down like Gulliver in Lilliput (I prefer not to talk about lions) but is effectively gagged as well. We have no seat in the British-Irish Council. We are not represented as a nation in the EU. As well as our own executive we do therefore need a first minister.
You are being too kind to the Labour party. The regional government plan was not intended to ‘annoy’ the English but to abolish England altogether. Despite the massive majority against a NE regional assembly in 2004, the govt is now pressing ahead with an alternative regionalisation programme. Mr Brown has now appointed ministers ‘to represent the govt’ (not the people) in each region and plans to have a select committee or mini-grand committee for each region. Mr Brown intends that England should become the national equivalent of Middlesex. So we need a very loud voice to start shouting NO! to all this. If the govt does not hear us, then the English, whether lion or Gulliver, will have no alternative but to break free of the Union.
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John, you drone on about the Balkanisation of England into Euro-manageable parcels called “regions” but fail to admit that most of the regional assemblies are Tory manged, for instance Seera’s board consists 71 “appointed” councillors from around the area, 51 of whom are Tory. So please less of the crocodile tears and more of the actualite.
Reply: The Councillors from Wokingham moved a motion to wind Seera up so don’t blame us! I want it abolished.
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The UK is disigned to work against the English and the Auld Enemy mentality has become government policy.
Gordon Brown is either stupid, or deliberately enriching his nation at England’s expense, in order to fund independence.
As we are constantly told he is very intelligent, it must be the latter.
The problem then is not a Scotsman on the make, but the teacherous English cowards who are helping him.
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John
You have only described half of the Royal coat of arms. As was explained to me when I went around Holyrood the rampant lion on the UK Coat of arms as used in England Wales and Northern Ireland is on the left, in Scotland it is on the right.
On the other matter you are quite right the time has come for the United Kingdom should maintain its Union by creating a federation of devolved countries.
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There is nothing to stop Conservative councils withdrawing their support and council taxpayers money from the regional assemblies.
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[...] that would be ludicrous. So I’m pleased to report that John has responded to a comment by Don Beadle to clarify his position: I would allow English MPs to create an executive structure within the [...]
“We English are tolerant,even long suffering, used to being attacked by all and sundry. The English spirit may be slow to arouse, but it is awesome once awoken. This government is making another one of its misjudgments in thinking England will continue to put up with the growing injustices of the devolution settlement, and will even tolerate the splitting of England into artificial regions. Cromwell tried that with the rule of the Major Generals”.
The Normans tried it on. Is there a Norman state? Is there a Norman language? So did the Spanish. So did the vikings. So did the French. The Dutch attacked us. Everyone knows the battles the English have had with the scots. The Irish tried it on in the battle of Brunanburh in the year 937! All of them misjudged us!
We’re are still here!
“The broken promise on a referendum on the EU constitution combined with regional government may be the acts which do arouse the English lion. A UK government dominated by Scottish MPs will find it increasingly uncomfortable if they misread the English mood on these crucial constitutional issues”.
I think the worst mistake they made was denying English cancer sufferers life-saving drugs! Oh and denying elderly English people winter heating. Oh and denying English students equal treatment. Oh and attempting to force a ridiculous fabricated regional assembly on the North East of England! Oh and forcing through legislation at Westminster. Oh and going against the English democratic tradition. I could go on and on; you get the picture.
We’re are still here!
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“I would allow English MPs to create an executive structure within the Westminster Parliament to mirror the Scottish structure. ”
and this would , in some way , be tacked on to the Westminster parliament and work alongside the British government structure , with which it would not compete , of course .
Er , I don’t want to sound too immediately dismissive of your idea , John , because I applaud the fact that you are recognising the injustice to England and that something has to be done about it
but it does appear somewhat novel and top heavy , not to say plain awkward , to have TWO government structures arising out of one parliament .
I can foresee one or two little problems here .
I do agree with you that Scotland would almost certainly exercise their right not to go for this , now that they have a clearcut parliament and government .
England should have the clearcut structure and democratic responsibility ie an English Parliament .
This leaves the function of the British parliament to be concerned solely with Union affairs which you agree is their concern for 3 days a week . Why not 5 days ?
Reply: Letting the Union Parliament meet five days a week would encourage even more unwanted legislation. Letting it meet two days a week - preferably during more weeks than at present - would allow proper accountabiltiy of Union government Ministers and discussion fo Finance/Social Security Bills. My version of the English Parliament would be just as powerful in England as the Scottish Parliament is in Scotland.
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Lions led by lambs!
Poor lions rich lambs.
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YOUR ANSWER TO Don Beadle
I would suggest to Scotland that it might like to save money on MPs by doing the same as England - electing one set of MPs to both Westminster and Edinburgh at the same time, but I would regard this as a matter for Scotland to decide, not for the Union to impose
I would venture that you are slipping into the same dual standards as Labour Mr R. Will you kindly extend the same courtesy and freedom of choice to the remaining 85% of this unholy alliance?
Reply: of course.I agree we the English need a choice as well.
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Redwood! Oh dear!
They worK for yoU .coM
Blocked! from this site HuH!
Tony Mac! Comments?
Figures in brackets are ranks. Parliamen005/06 2004/05 (ranking out of 659) 2003/04 (ranking out of 658) 2002/03 (ranking out of 657) 2001/02 (ranking out of 657)
Additional Costs Allowance
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