Comments on: Ignorance of the law is no excuse? http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/ Conservative Party Member of Parliament for Wokingham Tue, 07 Oct 2008 06:40:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: APL http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15543 APL Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:25:37 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15543 mikestallard: "My question is this: OK you can see clearly what is going wrong. Can the rest of the Conservatives and will things be any different when they get elected at the coming election? (This mob are doomed and I give them until Easter)." JR: "Conservatives all think this government is incompetent, and trying to do too many things." Classic example of avoiding the answer. Should we take that as a 'No', then? As in, things will be pretty much the same under a new conservative administration, especially as much if not most of the regulations implemented into british law originate in Brussels, and Cameron has avoided grasping that nettle for fear of waking the big beast from his comfortable slumber. Look, even Labour activists recognise this government is incompetent. Reply: I believe that Conservatives will be better and will make a difference. Judge us by the next manifesto when it arrives. mikestallard: “My question is this: OK you can see clearly what is going wrong. Can the rest of the Conservatives and will things be any different when they get elected at the coming election?
(This mob are doomed and I give them until Easter).”

JR: “Conservatives all think this government is incompetent, and trying to do too many things.”

Classic example of avoiding the answer. Should we take that as a ‘No’, then? As in, things will be pretty much the same under a new conservative administration, especially as much if not most of the regulations implemented into british law originate in Brussels, and Cameron has avoided grasping that nettle for fear of waking the big beast from his comfortable slumber.

Look, even Labour activists recognise this government is incompetent.

Reply: I believe that Conservatives will be better and will make a difference. Judge us by the next manifesto when it arrives.

]]> By: Mrs Smallprint http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15453 Mrs Smallprint Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:49:12 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15453 Ignorance of the law is no excuse but how can we be expected to comply with laws that even our legislators have not had time to scrutinise? Government Ministers who have enacted legislation on political funding do not understand or feel the need to comply with their own rules and think that it is an excuse to plead ignorance and lack of intent to 'do wrong'. Non compliance is the offence and they are caught by their own admission. Send them to the cells! Ignorance of the law is no excuse but how can we be expected to comply with laws that even our legislators have not had time to scrutinise? Government Ministers who have enacted legislation on political funding do not understand or feel the need to comply with their own rules and think that it is an excuse to plead ignorance and lack of intent to ‘do wrong’. Non compliance is the offence and they are caught by their own admission. Send them to the cells!

]]> By: Disheartened Voter http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15447 Disheartened Voter Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:54:21 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15447 Following up on an advert in one of the Sunday papers, I had cause to look at the HMRC website to see what the new (2007) Money Laundering Regulations (MLR) said. It is disgraceful - these regulations are intrusive, badly framed and potentially a serious threat to day-to-day business transactions. The scope of the individuals and organisations that need to be registered (and assessed in many cases as fit & proper persons) is substantially increased. When the MLR regulations were originally introduced the intention appeared to be to 'trap' larger sums (e.g. Following up on an advert in one of the Sunday papers, I had cause to look at the HMRC website to see what the new (2007) Money Laundering Regulations (MLR) said. It is disgraceful - these regulations are intrusive, badly framed and potentially a serious threat to day-to-day business transactions. The scope of the individuals and organisations that need to be registered (and assessed in many cases as fit & proper persons) is substantially increased.
When the MLR regulations were originally introduced the intention appeared to be to ‘trap’ larger sums (e.g.

]]> By: mikestallard http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15439 mikestallard Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:16:29 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15439 It is so refreshing to see just one MP who can see clearly where Parliament is going wrong. Down here at grass roots, we live in a whirl of total inefficiency and noseyness - what race are you, are you gay, what do you intend to teach (in five page detail), how many people do you have in each class, sorry you cannot post that, sorry your bins have some plastic in the wrong place. Whoops - we've lost all your secret details! Whoops we've lost them again! Whoops! we have let even more criminals out and West Side Boys in. Whoops! We have signed into Europe, but it doesn't matter, does it - they've done it anyway. My question is this: OK you can see clearly what is going wrong. Can the rest of the Conservatives and will things be any different when they get elected at the coming election? (This mob are doomed and I give them until Easter). Reply: Conservatives all think this government is incompetent, and trying to do too many things. It is so refreshing to see just one MP who can see clearly where Parliament is going wrong.
Down here at grass roots, we live in a whirl of total inefficiency and noseyness - what race are you, are you gay, what do you intend to teach (in five page detail), how many people do you have in each class, sorry you cannot post that, sorry your bins have some plastic in the wrong place.
Whoops - we’ve lost all your secret details!
Whoops we’ve lost them again!
Whoops! we have let even more criminals out and West Side Boys in.
Whoops! We have signed into Europe, but it doesn’t matter, does it - they’ve done it anyway.

My question is this: OK you can see clearly what is going wrong.
Can the rest of the Conservatives and will things be any different when they get elected at the coming election?
(This mob are doomed and I give them until Easter).

Reply: Conservatives all think this government is incompetent, and trying to do too many things.

]]> By: Ed http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15435 Ed Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:37:27 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15435 It's clear to me that Parliament and the government try to do too much. Instead of trying to micromanage every possible permutation, Parliament's job should be to set the outline and let the chips fall where they will. It’s clear to me that Parliament and the government try to do too much. Instead of trying to micromanage every possible permutation, Parliament’s job should be to set the outline and let the chips fall where they will.

]]> By: Francis Irving http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15424 Francis Irving Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:34:14 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15424 Thanks for this John. It's interesting to get a view from inside. While the underlying problem is too much (often bad quality) new law, there are some technological improvements that can help. Hopefully the web-based tools that both Parliament and civil society will make for viewing amendments, and collaboratively researching new laws, will be really good in a few years time. Out here we're aware that many MPs aren't scutinising legislation enough, it is reassuring to see that some of you are trying to! Keep up the good work. Thanks for this John. It’s interesting to get a view from inside.

While the underlying problem is too much (often bad quality) new law, there are some technological improvements that can help. Hopefully the web-based tools that both Parliament and civil society will make for viewing amendments, and collaboratively researching new laws, will be really good in a few years time.

Out here we’re aware that many MPs aren’t scutinising legislation enough, it is reassuring to see that some of you are trying to! Keep up the good work.

]]> By: Mrs Smallprint http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15415 Mrs Smallprint Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:24 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15415 I agree entirely, too much law, open to too many interpretations and way way too much interference. I named my blog Mrs Smallprint because I am one of the small business people trying to make their way through the endless regulation without being arrested or constantly fined for non-submission of this or that return. The last ten years under Labour have seen an ever increasing nightmare of constantly changing regulations and forms. What we need most is a freeze on all new "Gordon bright ideas" until we've sorted out all the things that are wrong with his last lot. I agree entirely, too much law, open to too many interpretations and way way too much interference. I named my blog Mrs Smallprint because I am one of the small business people trying to make their way through the endless regulation without being arrested or constantly fined for non-submission of this or that return. The last ten years under Labour have seen an ever increasing nightmare of constantly changing regulations and forms.

What we need most is a freeze on all new “Gordon bright ideas” until we’ve sorted out all the things that are wrong with his last lot.

]]> By: Cliff http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15413 Cliff Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:39:07 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15413 The biggest worry as far as I am concerned, is the fact that so many of these "new" offences are absolute liability offences or in other words, the need for a "mens rea" is gone. The action in itself is enough to convict, no need for any intent or recklessness to be proved. Many new offences can only be tried in a magistrates court which in my opinion, is little more than a rubber stamping exercise. What the prosecution and their official witness' say is always true and their evidence is always preferred over the defendants'. I am also concerned by the number of quangos that can impose fines, oppps, sorry not fines penalties. If they were called fines they would actually be illegal. If one looks at speeding fines for example, I am told that it is forty pounds if you accept guilt and pay straight away but, if you wish to challenge it in a court, you can be fined upto The biggest worry as far as I am concerned, is the fact that so many of these “new” offences are absolute liability offences or in other words, the need for a “mens rea” is gone. The action in itself is enough to convict, no need for any intent or recklessness to be proved.

Many new offences can only be tried in a magistrates court which in my opinion, is little more than a rubber stamping exercise. What the prosecution and their official witness’ say is always true and their evidence is always preferred over the defendants’.

I am also concerned by the number of quangos that can impose fines, oppps, sorry not fines penalties. If they were called fines they would actually be illegal.

If one looks at speeding fines for example, I am told that it is forty pounds if you accept guilt and pay straight away but, if you wish to challenge it in a court, you can be fined upto

]]> By: APL http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15408 APL Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:03:27 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15408 JR: "but I have increasing sympathy with generally law abiding people who simply had not got round to reading the reams of legislative paper being churned out by Brussels and Whitehall which might affect them and their businesses." Well, this is what the Europhiles wanted! Ken Clarke wanted us to be more like the continentals ("we must not miss that boat"), he has what he wanted. They have so many laws that most of them were ignored. Italy, a wonderful country, but much of its economy is on the illicit black market. That being the rational response to too many laws - ignore the law! Our old system, where there were relitively few laws, but they were enforced rigouriously was in my opinion better. The Anglo Saxon concept of Law, what is not forbidden is permitted in contrast to the Continental concept of law, what is not expressly permitted is forbidden. JR: "Too much law means a cowed people, unsure of what the law says, and hesitant about doing things and making decisions. Too much law is the enemy of enterprise and risk taking." It is also the signiture of a repressive regime, if you have no hope or reasonably going through life without contravening one or other law, then the government can pick on you at any time and goal you for this or that minor indrescession. The government can continue to throw accusuations at you, until you are ruined. By the way, be under no illusion, 'Carbon quota's' are another manifestation of the same phenomena. Now, you cannot breath without permission of the state. Essentially, this is what happened to Lord Black, the authorities could not actually get him on the charges, so they got him on obstruction of justice instead. If it can happen to someone as rich and powerful as Black, what hope have the rest of us? JR: “but I have increasing sympathy with generally law abiding people who simply had not got round to reading the reams of legislative paper being churned out by Brussels and Whitehall which might affect them and their businesses.”

Well, this is what the Europhiles wanted! Ken Clarke wanted us to be more like the continentals (”we must not miss that boat”), he has what he wanted. They have so many laws that most of them were ignored. Italy, a wonderful country, but much of its economy is on the illicit black market. That being the rational response to too many laws - ignore the law!

Our old system, where there were relitively few laws, but they were enforced rigouriously was in my opinion better.

The Anglo Saxon concept of Law, what is not forbidden is permitted in contrast to the Continental concept of law, what is not expressly permitted is forbidden.

JR: “Too much law means a cowed people, unsure of what the law says, and hesitant about doing things and making decisions. Too much law is the enemy of enterprise and risk taking.”

It is also the signiture of a repressive regime, if you have no hope or reasonably going through life without contravening one or other law, then the government can pick on you at any time and goal you for this or that minor indrescession. The government can continue to throw accusuations at you, until you are ruined.

By the way, be under no illusion, ‘Carbon quota’s’ are another manifestation of the same phenomena. Now, you cannot breath without permission of the state.

Essentially, this is what happened to Lord Black, the authorities could not actually get him on the charges, so they got him on obstruction of justice instead.

If it can happen to someone as rich and powerful as Black, what hope have the rest of us?

]]> By: Letters From A Tory http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15401 Letters From A Tory Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:25:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15401 It seems incredible to me that 'ignorance' is deemed a reasonable excuse by the government when it comes to breaking the law. I don't expect every politician to read every law, but I do expect them to know the laws that concern THEM - and party donations concern every single MP in the country and a lot of other people as well. http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com It seems incredible to me that ‘ignorance’ is deemed a reasonable excuse by the government when it comes to breaking the law. I don’t expect every politician to read every law, but I do expect them to know the laws that concern THEM - and party donations concern every single MP in the country and a lot of other people as well.

http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com

]]> By: Tim Bull http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15399 Tim Bull Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:13:10 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/17/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-excuse/#comment-15399 John: If, as some commentators predict, we are moving toward the principles of 'Roman' Law (all actions are illegal unless specifically enabled by law) then the enactment of many new and loosly drafted laws should benefit our liberties - if they are enabling. Typically, under this government, they are nearly all disabling ! John:

If, as some commentators predict, we are moving toward the principles of ‘Roman’ Law (all actions are illegal unless specifically enabled by law) then the enactment of many new and loosly drafted laws should benefit our liberties - if they are enabling.

Typically, under this government, they are nearly all disabling !

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