Comments on: Confirmation that there is no shred of democracy in the EU http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/ Conservative Party Candidate for Wokingham Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:16:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Alan Wheatley http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29052 Alan Wheatley Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:38:41 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29052 Come the run-up to the European elections, is Cameron going to tell us (again) which grouping the Conservative MEPs are going to join? Should we believe him this time? Reply: Yes he will. He has made clear we will have nothing to do with the Federalist EPP, and no Conservative will be able this time to stand on a platform of support for them or federalism. Come the run-up to the European elections, is Cameron going to tell us (again) which grouping the Conservative MEPs are going to join? Should we believe him this time?

Reply: Yes he will. He has made clear we will have nothing to do with the Federalist EPP, and no Conservative will be able this time to stand on a platform of support for them or federalism.

]]> By: Ken Adams http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29044 Ken Adams Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:13:55 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29044 It must be treason as all those involved have sworn allegiance to the Crown this was confirmed by no lesser person than Tony Blair who said “The dilemma of a British Prime Minister over Europe is acute to the point of the ridiculous. Basically you have a choice: co-operate in Europe and you betray Britain; be unreasonable in Europe, be praised back home, and be utterly without influence in Europe. It’s sort of: isolation or treason.” It is all about protecting the national sovereignty not undermining it, we are faced literally with a revolution against the people by the state. Does the monarch own the country outright and literally have the power to give it away, because that would be the only way this argument could stand. It must be treason as all those involved have sworn allegiance to the Crown this was confirmed by no lesser person than Tony Blair who said

“The dilemma of a British Prime Minister over Europe is acute to the point of the ridiculous. Basically you have a choice: co-operate in Europe and you betray Britain; be unreasonable in Europe, be praised back home, and be utterly without influence in Europe. It’s sort of: isolation or treason.”

It is all about protecting the national sovereignty not undermining it, we are faced literally with a revolution against the people by the state.

Does the monarch own the country outright and literally have the power to give it away, because that would be the only way this argument could stand.

]]> By: DennisA http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29035 DennisA Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:55:40 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29035 If there is common currency, common taxes, common laws, common government, you then have a state, the ultimate long term objective. Where then is the competition? If there is common currency, common taxes, common laws, common government, you then have a state, the ultimate long term objective. Where then is the competition?

]]> By: DennisA http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29034 DennisA Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:45:19 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29034 I think the Conservatives are quietly hoping the Lisbon Constitution will be ratified and then they don't have to bother. To say there will be a referundum only if Lisbon isn't ratified is a cop out. The colleagues will work very hard behind the scenes to make sure we don't get the chance. I think the Conservatives are quietly hoping the Lisbon Constitution will be ratified and then they don’t have to bother. To say there will be a referundum only if Lisbon isn’t ratified is a cop out. The colleagues will work very hard behind the scenes to make sure we don’t get the chance.

]]> By: Julian White http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29020 Julian White Sat, 13 Dec 2008 02:51:41 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29020 I agree with the Irish Government. If the Government firmly believes that it is in the best interests of the nation to move forward with a constitution, then of course it should try again. It should reform its arguments, strengthen its case and put the matter back before the people. Electorally, the Conservatives will not win votes by being anti-European. Strong leaders, such as John Major (who unlike Thatcher didn't dither about the place all the time on the European issue), knew that Britain could play a strong part in the European Union. Instead of being scared of the European Union, it's time for us to let our businesses embrace the continent and start competing economically to be the best. John Redwood's argument, with respect, is false. It's like saying that if the Conservatives lost the General Election, they should respect the people and not try again. Politics isn't that simple and politicians should fight for what they believe in, and communicate that to the electorate, but listen to the electorate at the same time. Reply: Fine - let's have a 2nd referendum in France and Holland then I agree with the Irish Government. If the Government firmly believes that it is in the best interests of the nation to move forward with a constitution, then of course it should try again. It should reform its arguments, strengthen its case and put the matter back before the people.

Electorally, the Conservatives will not win votes by being anti-European. Strong leaders, such as John Major (who unlike Thatcher didn’t dither about the place all the time on the European issue), knew that Britain could play a strong part in the European Union. Instead of being scared of the European Union, it’s time for us to let our businesses embrace the continent and start competing economically to be the best.

John Redwood’s argument, with respect, is false. It’s like saying that if the Conservatives lost the General Election, they should respect the people and not try again. Politics isn’t that simple and politicians should fight for what they believe in, and communicate that to the electorate, but listen to the electorate at the same time.

Reply: Fine – let’s have a 2nd referendum in France and Holland then

]]> By: James Morrison http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29013 James Morrison Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:42:00 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29013 Hasn't the Queen already signed Lisbon? Hasn’t the Queen already signed Lisbon?

]]> By: James Morrison http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29012 James Morrison Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:40:13 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29012 Absolutely right! I can't see any of the political elite on any side if the house taking us out of the EU, regardless of the result of a referendum. I think too many of them have too much to gain personally. I might be wrong, but it's the only reason I can see why the wishes of the population are ignored time after time Absolutely right!

I can’t see any of the political elite on any side if the house taking us out of the EU, regardless of the result of a referendum. I think too many of them have too much to gain personally. I might be wrong, but it’s the only reason I can see why the wishes of the population are ignored time after time

]]> By: mikestallard http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29010 mikestallard Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:23:00 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29010 Did you see him on Newsnight this week? Did you see him on Newsnight this week?

]]> By: Lola http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29008 Lola Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:14:29 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29008 Warning! This is a rude one. What part of F**k Off don't they understand? (You really need to be Anglo Saxon English - or strangely Irish - to really understand this) Warning! This is a rude one.

What part of F**k Off don’t they understand?

(You really need to be Anglo Saxon English – or strangely Irish – to really understand this)

]]> By: Adrian Peirson http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29004 Adrian Peirson Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:39:10 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29004 What happens if they vote yes, do they have to vote again to make sure, the EU is not Democratic, they will not accept no for an answer, in anything. The New world Order for dummies http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLPG_HplrA And now for a World Government. http://www.prisonplanet.com/financial-times-editorial-admits-agenda-for-dictatorial-world-government.html drip drip drip. What happens if they vote yes, do they have to vote again to make sure, the EU is not Democratic, they will not accept no for an answer, in anything.

The New world Order for dummies
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLPG_HplrA

And now for a World Government.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/financial-times-editorial-admits-agenda-for-dictatorial-world-government.html

drip drip drip.

]]> By: Robert Eve http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29003 Robert Eve Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:27:31 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29003 We don't want goodies - we just want out!! We don’t want goodies – we just want out!!

]]> By: rugfish http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29002 rugfish Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:11:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29002 Agreed! Agreed!

]]> By: Curly http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-29000 Curly Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:19:09 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-29000 You will vote, vote, and vote again until we get the result we need! You will vote, vote, and vote again until we get the result we need!

]]> By: T England http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-28998 T England Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:49:23 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-28998 Agreed! Agreed!

]]> By: Andrew Forbes http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-28996 Andrew Forbes Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:28:48 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-28996 The most pertinent comment is that the treaty has changed, therefore all govts need to ratify it again. For example, if we’ve signed up to a common EU army (have we?), we signed on the basis that all EU members will pull their weight. If, now, one of them is able to duck out of defence obligations, leaving us to carry an unfair share of the burden, then that part of the treaty is not valid, if not all of it. The Irish are being given guarantees on tax independence. Do we not have the same? This is key; we might be under obligation on an area of tax, while the Irish are free to give themselves a competitive advantage. The treaty is not valid if it changes for anyone. Furthermore, it appears that whenever a country rejects a treaty, various sweeteners and opt outs are offered. Why, therefore, does any country sign up 1st time out? Surely every govt owes it to its people to get the best deal possible. What goodies would we have been offered if we’d rejected it the 1st time? The most pertinent comment is that the treaty has changed, therefore all govts need to ratify it again. For example, if we’ve signed up to a common EU army (have we?), we signed on the basis that all EU members will pull their weight. If, now, one of them is able to duck out of defence obligations, leaving us to carry an unfair share of the burden, then that part of the treaty is not valid, if not all of it. The Irish are being given guarantees on tax independence. Do we not have the same? This is key; we might be under obligation on an area of tax, while the Irish are free to give themselves a competitive advantage. The treaty is not valid if it changes for anyone.

Furthermore, it appears that whenever a country rejects a treaty, various sweeteners and opt outs are offered. Why, therefore, does any country sign up 1st time out? Surely every govt owes it to its people to get the best deal possible. What goodies would we have been offered if we’d rejected it the 1st time?

]]> By: Letters From A Tory http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-28995 Letters From A Tory Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:52:45 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-28995 To be honest, I didn't think democracy was alive in the EU before this incident so at least I don't have to deal with the element of surprise that some people are demonstrating in the media. Lucky me? www.lettersfromatory.com To be honest, I didn’t think democracy was alive in the EU before this incident so at least I don’t have to deal with the element of surprise that some people are demonstrating in the media.

Lucky me?

http://www.lettersfromatory.com

]]> By: rugfish http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-28993 rugfish Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:03:57 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-28993 There can surely be no reason why David Cameron cannot announce a policy to give a referendum to the British people or to say we will not endorse it. Parliament approved the treaty on the basis that Ireland would approve it, so parliament should respect the terms at the time it was deliberated. If unanimous decision making along with the democratic decision of an electorate are to be overridden, ignored or bargained with so as to fundamentally change the basis on which our parliament gave its decision, then to proceed without re-visiting it would give it even less legitimacy than it has now. If it continues to go ahead without the expressed wish of the British people then our own parliament will lack legitimacy. Our parliament would be like a festering carbuncle on the nation and if that is the case then it should be amputated. There can surely be no reason why David Cameron cannot announce a policy to give a referendum to the British people or to say we will not endorse it.

Parliament approved the treaty on the basis that Ireland would approve it, so parliament should respect the terms at the time it was deliberated.

If unanimous decision making along with the democratic decision of an electorate are to be overridden, ignored or bargained with so as to fundamentally change the basis on which our parliament gave its decision, then to proceed without re-visiting it would give it even less legitimacy than it has now.

If it continues to go ahead without the expressed wish of the British people then our own parliament will lack legitimacy. Our parliament would be like a festering carbuncle on the nation and if that is the case then it should be amputated.

]]> By: Johnny Norfolk http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-28992 Johnny Norfolk Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:42:18 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-28992 Totaly agree with you john. Oh and by the way when did Conservative Central Office move to Germany. There is more opposition from the Germans than the Tories, well what we can hear anyway. Totaly agree with you john. Oh and by the way when did Conservative Central Office move to Germany. There is more opposition from the Germans than the Tories, well what we can hear anyway.

]]> By: Peter http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-28990 Peter Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:33:38 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-28990 Maybe John. But maybe also we should join Germany as North Germany lander. Their politicians - both right and left have the guts to oppose Brown on tax and waste. It's very depressing for anyone who dislikes the EU democratic deficit to see the collapse of UK £ v Euro. David Cameron will not get my vote - too much Mr Nice Guy while our retirement income from prudent savings over 40 years collapses by thousands per annum. Thank God we are already retired, or our income would be halved again if I was 65 this year - decimated funds and derisory annuity rate. The market was 6600 or something when Blair got in. And remind me about the pound! Not maybe the time to bang on about Europe. Maybe John. But maybe also we should join Germany as North Germany lander. Their politicians – both right and left have the guts to oppose Brown on tax and waste. It’s very depressing for anyone who dislikes the EU democratic deficit to see the collapse of UK £ v Euro. David Cameron will not get my vote – too much Mr Nice Guy while our retirement income from prudent savings over 40 years collapses by thousands per annum. Thank God we are already retired, or our income would be halved again if I was 65 this year – decimated funds and derisory annuity rate. The market was 6600 or something when Blair got in. And remind me about the pound! Not maybe the time to bang on about Europe.

]]> By: adam http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/12/11/confirmation-that-there-is-no-shred-of-democracy-in-the-eu/#comment-28985 adam Fri, 12 Dec 2008 01:27:57 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2357#comment-28985 Conspiracy theorists proven right yet again. Mps and clueless journalists, with their media studies degrees, wrong as usual. Today is the anniversary of the hold a referendum protests in that debacle of a parliament. A fitting time to announce Ireland must have two referendum while Britain must have none Conspiracy theorists proven right yet again. Mps and clueless journalists, with their media studies degrees, wrong as usual.

Today is the anniversary of the hold a referendum protests in that debacle of a parliament. A fitting time to announce Ireland must have two referendum while Britain must have none

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