Mr. Redwood: I rise to support the excellent contribution by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), in the spirit of cross-party co-operation in which the new clause was moved.

I love the image of England in the 1960s, when I grew up, when independent and civically minded people were in local government and there were fewer representatives of political parties. I am sure that there were, indeed, people who could harness the good will of people of all parties and of none in solving problems. Local government now is much more politicised, although I do not think that we are about to reverse that.

All the main political parties want to test their strength in local government elections. They also wish to propose, in an understandable way, a national and local programme combined. Some voters agree with that. Some say that they do not, although I suspect from how they vote that in practice they think that there is something to be said for a party platform. However, I would argue that the hon. Gentleman’s proposal works equally well in the more modern world, where party political groups are likely to predominate in councils, because the most important thing is the role of the average councillor.

The enforced cabinet system in local government has given back-bench councillors a reduced role and made a lot of them rather unhappy. Not only do they not have a proper role in the decision making of the authority to which they were elected with equal strength to those who do, but they do not even have the same ability to hold the administration—the executive—to account for the people whom they represent in their wards and divisions, because we all know that the officers do not take them as seriously if they do not have executive power and are not members of the cabinet. I have known councillors who cannot even get information out of their council, but surely a councillor should have a privileged position and expect to see the business of the council, if necessary on terms of privacy, if it relates to individuals or sensitive matters.

We need to devolve power more properly to local government. I would hope, as the hon. Gentleman does, that if we could do that, more local authorities would choose a committee structure and return to the idea that the important decisions should be thrashed out in common in the political groups, so when the political groups presented their views to the council, not only would the group leaders know that they spoke for their group and know what the balance of opinion and forces was within it, but each back bencher would feel that they mattered, because they would have an equal vote in the group. If they are powerful speakers, if they feel passionately about something, if they have a good case or if they are on the popular side, they will have the joy of knowing that they will help to form the group proposal. All that would become possible again if the hon. Gentleman’s new clause 8 were passed.

Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Perhaps his experience of the committee system is reinforced by mine when I was a committee chairman in local government. In effect, the committee chairman and the leader formed a cabinet and gave officers a steer. However, once the policy was agreed, my job as a committee chairman was to take the members of my committee with me. At the very least, that meant taking the back-bench members of my side and sometimes, if I wanted an easier ride, taking members of the opposition as well. Is that not a much healthier situation?

Mr. Redwood: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that comment, and I hope that that means that those on the Opposition Front Bench will support new clause 8, should there be an opportunity to vote on it.

When I was a county councillor in Oxfordshire in my younger political days, I, too, was privileged to be a committee chairman. I therefore had some executive authority. However, I always felt that that authority came from and was vested in the majority group. I was always pleased to take what I wanted to do to the group. I thought that I was doing the right thing, but it was a lot stronger if I could take it to those in the group and persuade them, because then I knew that they would vote for it willingly, unlike under the current system, where things are worked out in private, often on the advice of the officers and without a lot of political sense involved. Then things have to be driven through against the unwillingness and the voting patterns of the majority councillors, with all sorts of arm twisting of the kind that people sometimes experience even in this place, in a way that gets in the way of good government and common sense.

People elect councillors because they think that they have talents and skills, so surely all those talents and skills should be deployed. Not all councillors can have executive posts, so let them be involved in the big decisions. Indeed, perhaps we could learn a bit from that in this place. Of course we need a Cabinet—we all understand the importance of Cabinet government—but successful Cabinet Ministers in this place are Ministers who consult, consider and listen to colleagues before they go snap on a policy. Successful Cabinet Ministers not only understand their policy and know how to pilot it through this place, but are people who have tested it out in advance and do not think that everything has to be secret. Then they know that they have a constituency for change. I hope that we can vote on new clause 8 and free local government to have that option.