Nov 04 2009
Lisbon lies
The EU has declared war on the UK. The conspiracy to make sure Lisbon comes into effect without giving the Uk people the vote they were promised by all three main parties in the 2005 election will increase the distrust of the organisation and its power loving political elite. The way it ignored referendum results against the constitution in France and Holland, claimed that the Constitution had been abandoned when it had just been renamed, and then thrust it on the unwilling Irish by making them have a second vote has reminded us all here just how much the elite hates democracy and despises the views of the people. There will be a price to pay.
No incoming Conservative government can live with the massive transfer of power that has now taken place. Parliamentary sovereignty has to be reasserted. The passerelle clauses, which give the new EU the right to take more power in the future without a renegotiaiton, clearly cannot apply in the UK. The UK will need to regain its rights to control its own criminal law codes, employment law, foreign policy and much else. The UK must reject unequivocally the single currency, a common army, and grandstanding officials claiming to speak for a Euro state.
The EU has been too clever by half. It should remember that to many British voters the EU is just a source of higher taxes to pay its bills, and more needless regulation. A body like this if it wishes to govern us in many areas need consent. Today the EU does not have popular consent for many of its policies and plans.
76 Responses to “Lisbon lies”
John Redwood has been the Member of Parliament for Wokingham since 1987. First attending Kent College, Canterbury, he graduated from Magdalen College...
All good stuff. Of course, the question is, what are you going to do about it ?
Many of the public rather liked the very simple concept of being offered the missing referendum by the Conservatives. Mr Cameron should have had his plan B ready to announce immediately, rather than Mr Hague just telling us that the “cast iron promise” is now ended.
There are going to be a lot of angry voters defecting from the Conservatives if this plan B offers any less than a proper referendum – if the next GE is mooted as the only time we can choose, you can expect a big surge in support for UKIP.
Was it a coincidence that on the same day this was announced, Europe told the Government how to deal with the banks? As a display of who now really holds power, this piece of timing was immaculate.
Mr Brown has now raised the stakes – if a vote on Lisbon is now unviable, we will have to be offered a vote on EU membership. This doesn’t have to be simply in/out, but could have three or four levels of commitment.
We don’t care about the niceties of diplomacy, and any “problems” with renegotiation. Nobody has considered the finer feelings of the UK electorate, so why should we care about those of the politicuans?
And this is why, Mr Redwood, in th absence of any consultative referendum, that your presence on any Cameron “crack squad” of negotiators is essential. Those of us who are willing to put their trust in the Conservative party to deliver on this, need the re-assurance of your involvement. Could you confirm on this blog your willingness to carry out such a role, if asked?
I imagine the Tories must now make the electoral calculation of how many seats they will lose by being more sceptical, versus how many they will lose by being more conciliatory. Is there any good analysis of this anywhere ?
This shoddy little deal between our socialists and Europe has developed into a war. The EU know full well they can now marginalise Cameron, and will do so.
Cameron will find that on any issue he wishes to be heard he will be obliged to bend the knee or remain unheard.
He will need courage; the courage to consult his own electorate on how far he can go. He will need to face down the EU and make it clear that we are willing to leave the club if necessary.
Anything less and he will find dealing with the EU more and more difficult and more importantly he will find more and more of his time taken up by EU issues.
Lets hope he can see that he is now in a one way street and there is no reasonable chance of going into reverse
John, we are approaching the point where winning us over to the EU will no longer matter because failure to comply with the wishes of our new government will incur penalties.
On the plus side, it’s hard to envisage a European government as bad as the one we have had for the last decade.
Rather than fighting a lost battle, I think we might do better fighting for more accountability and democracy in Brussells. Now, there’s a challenge.
I strongly support what you say. The EU with the connivance of New Labour is taking over our country and I do not want that – I want sovereignty to be returned to and to remain at Westminster and I want us to have MPs that value and defend our sovereignty. I do not see why David Cameron wants to negotiate under the umbrella of Lisbon which has no mandate from the British people – why doesn’t he have the spine to simply unratify Lisbon (and indeed unratify all the other treaties – preferably back to and including the accession act of 1972). Brown et el are clearly traitors, but Cameron, by reneging on a referendum, is beginning to look half hearted and not too trustworthy .
Indeed, and the answer has to be for UK taxpayers to be given a fundamental choice as to whether we continue to belong to a club that behaves like this towards its members. No less.
Fudge and muddle won’t do… Cameron will not be able to say, as many expect he will, “we will put forward a choice to the British people as to whether we opt-out of certain powers in the field of employment and social law”. It won’t happen.
We are either in as a member or out and taking our chances under EFTA, just like Norway and Switzerland. Look on yesterday’s Burning our Money site and see where those 2 nations are in the League of Debtors!
Ah at last some fighting talk.
But methinks this is, what it is, just talk.
John you may be angry, many of us out here are angry too, but what of the majority in your Party, are they angry as well.
Indeed what is DC going to do about it (if elected).
Appreciate Lisbon is now law and on the statute book, but the way the EU has behaved, is just a taster of what is to come. Now no Country has it would seem, a right to veto anything (at least that is my understanding).
It should not be forgotten that it was Labour who sold us down the river on this occassion, but the Conservatives have done so in the past as well, many Treaties being signed by them in the past which encouraged the endless drip, drip of unaccountability.
Its a disgrace and it should end.
It will only end when Members of Parliament again wake up to find that they actually will have no control of anything anymore and are totally impotent to act in this County’s best interests.
Those that gave their lives in the past for our independence must now be turning in their graves.
How right you are. But what, exactly, are the Tories going to do about it?
I think it’s time to play hardball. After the election, and assuming the Tories win, Cameron should simply TELL the EU Politburo that the UK will repatriate these powers by passing appropriate legislation in the UK which nullifies these elements of any and all EU Treaties which have NOT been ratified with the consent of a Referendum by the electorate.
If they squeal – stop the UK budgetary contribution until satisfactory ‘negotiations’ have concluded.
I agree with your sentiments but what will any UK government do about it? Perhaps we shall learn more today from Cameron but I’m not optimistic. The EU juggernaut rolls on relentlessly; it is anti-democratic and contemptuous of the views and wishes of the people in the member states. In many ways it is just like the USSR and one day it also will collapse.
The emphasis has been on Lisbon, but we are now in that post Lisbon time where the voices of various people will be heard.
How are the voters of other countries going to react? Let’s not forget the people who actually voted against the constitution. They have been ignored and silent, but in the next couple of years?
I agree, and clearly you find yourself in a difficult position.
Your leader has reneged on his cast-iron promise to give the people a say in this matter. People will be unlikely to believe any other promise he may make. How could he possibly convince them? Make a cast-iron-cast-iron no-really-I-actually-mean-it-this-time promise? Who is going to be convinced? He has blown any credibility he may have slowly been gaining.
As for regaining control over the areas you mention, how exactly? The constitution is now EU law, which as we all know has “primacy” over ours, thanks to past governments of both shades. Any change to the new status quo would require unanimous agreement from the existing 25 member states. How likely is that?
The fact is, we’re stuffed. Thank you, politicians.
I find it almost unbelievable, and unbelievably sad, that a once-great, once-free, once-independent nation could so reduce itself, in just a few short years, without suffering defeat in war or any other catastrophe.
Excellent – if only you were the Conservative Party leader this country would have a chance.
In recent years I have frequently felt as if we were living in an updated version of Gullivers Travels and Jonathan Swift had written about the country that turned the blindingly obvious into rocket science.
As I have previously written all DC has to do is pledge an in/out EU referendum with six months of taking office. Benefits:
1.Kill UKIP/BNP
2.Landslide election victory
3.Remove this elephant from the Party with a free vote
4.Honour and respect our history – the 1975 vote was for the EEC, what has happened since is a disgrace to all those who brought us through WW2.
I can foresee that unless Cameron comes up with some real promises that we can trust on Lisbon and the EU, having already reneged on a “cast iron” guarantee to have a referendum, I will be among the many voters turning to UKIP.
Most of us realise that this will probably let in Labour, but they got us into the present financial mess, let them get us out. And without some new approach to Europe, it is very difficult to see any significant difference between the two major parties now that even Labour is admitting there will have to be cuts and tax increases.
In the long run, this will surely lead to a true conservative government, led by someone in the spirit of Margaret Thatcher, who’s views are firm and clear with none of the “ifs” and “buts” of the current generation of politicians who allow the media and polls to determine policy.
The trouble is that Cameron is so imcompetent he would rather hand over the work he is supposed to do for the British public (who may elect him) to a foreign power. You must all be SO bored as there is nothing left to do except sort out people’s problems in the surgeries you hold. Why you get paid so handsomely is beyond me. You are not held responsible for running the ‘company’ and soon there will be no point in having elections. That time may have already come – we all know how the EU hates democracy. Will we have a general election next year? It could be cancelled by the EU. We wait and see!
John – I truly like what you say. If you were head of the Conservative party and still saying these things, I would vote Conservative and even be out there campaigning with you. The BNP danger would be gone and many people moving to the likes of LPUK and UKIP would back you.
BUT – Cameron is NOT saying what you are saying and there is not the slightest indication that voting Tory will make one jits worth of difference. Cameron’s lack of spine is going to create a ground swell of support for flaky pseudo parties like BNP at a time when we most need to concentrate our efforts to halt our slide into to spittoon which is the EU.
The EU WANT Cameron to be weak – they do not want a strong focus in English Government able and intent on taking back what is being stolen from us. The EU do not want you or the likes of you leading a strongly focused campaign able to galvanise the myriad of voters totally disillusioned by our governments to date.
John Redwood for PM – a thousand times yes.
Derek Smith
Englishman
Vanessa’s obvious frustrations do sum up the fundamental problem.
The EU is not democratic, never has been, and has been deliberately structured to insulate the decision makers from the public’s opinions, and I’m increasingly of the opinion that this is what attracts the Europhiles to support it. They genuinely see it as a better system than democracy, but obviously cannot state this openly.
The way our own elected representatives have let this happen betrays their own mind-sets. MPs sit in the House as our representatives, not our rulers, and it is not in their gift to grant further powers in perpetuity to a third party.
The fact that the majority of MPs over the past 30 years have allowed their authority to ebb away illustrates the contempt that they feel for their own electorate, as do their collective claims of injured innocence regarding the exposure of their expenses system. (Let’s not forget that any MP with balls could and should have exposed the troughing behaviour of the rest long before the press got hold of the issue.)
Those who believe that the EU can be reformed or that the UK can negotiate some deal do not understand the purpose of the institution. The instituion exists for the sake of itself and its propagation.
The aim is to be like ancient Rome with Caesar and his Senate – a patrician oligarchy doing what is best – primarily for themselves – and dishing out slops to the People to keep them quite, with strong laws and army to keep them in their place.
The Conservative party policy is, according to David Cameron:
“Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations.” (signed Sun article)
Going on to explain the difference between him & Brown:
“Make no mistake, that’s the reason he refuses to give the British people a referendum on the EU constitutional treaty – he simply doesn’t trust them. It’s the arrogant belief that he – and only he – has the right to decide what’s best for Britain’s future.
Well, Prime Minister, I’ve news for you. The old politics that you grew up in no longer reflect the new world we live in. It’s a world where people are demanding – and getting – more power and more control over their lives.”
I don’t know exactly what the Conservative Party constitution says (I have tried to find it but remarkably doesn’t seem to be online) but I would assume that if the large majority of MPs & the overwhelming majority of members (also of the public) wish to keep the referendum policy & the party is in any way democratic, Cameron simply cannot say this is no longer policy.
Agreed 100%, so what is a Conservative government going to do about it? Where is the Will to Power? Where is the determination to prevail?
I have consistently argued that the thing to do is to de-ratify the Lisbon Treaty on day one of taking office, on three grounds:
(1) No UK parliament can bind its successor;
(2) It is a Constitution not a Treaty (Angela Merkel has as good as admitted it) so the electoral process in many countries has been inadequate; and
(3) Realpolitik – it puts a pistol at the head of the Franco-German axis, so that they will take our renegotiation seriously.
Having done this, we table what we want for ourselves, and hopefully many other countries not in the Euro zone. That is the Europe that existed after the Single European Act, before Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon. This will lead to a two ring Europe, federal and non-federal.
We should also let the French and Germans know that, if they are not willing to enter such a renegotiation seriously and in good faith, then we will paralyse the EU from the inside. For this we will need allies – a significant minority of Member States plus all the UKIP MEPs. A large dissenting minority can wreck normal government – notice the actions of the Irish Nationalist MPs at Westminster before Irish independence.
Hopefully it can all be sorted out amicably, but if not Samson has to be prepared to pull the temple down.
“No referendum – no vote”. We might as well stick with Brown.
Quite. It shows just what the Tories think of democracy. Screw it.
I’m pro Europe, but I’m even more in favour of democracy.
It’s two fingers up to the electorate. You’ve lost two votes as a result.
It’s the expense all over again. MPs are more important the the little people.
Nick
@Mick Anderson.
Right: the EU rules on breaking up our banks on the same day as Lisbon is ratified.But JR has campaigned tirelessly for the break-up of the banks.Ergo he should be in favour of the EU which seems to be institutionally anti public sector and right up his street.
Am proud to have voted against the EU ( incidentally called the Common market on the form) in the referendum when the Conservative Party showed what it was all about by lining up solidly for it (even Margaret Thatcher who was elated by the result)
while the Left (and Enoch Powell) were a bit more worldly wise.
As an oldish person I find the situation we have been led into very disturbing.
Currently a mild mannered individual I feel that, having no redress through normal means, I more and more think about non conventional means of protest (and I know others think the same).
When will the cork go pop I wonder!!!
The EU wanted Britain weakened and out of the way as we were a threat to their ‘Empire’. Labour, the traitors, have obliged. There is no point in getting mad now at what has happened (getting mad at Labour traitors is fine, string them up, and the press have a lot to answer for as well) we now have to get even. The EU has won the battle, we have to win the war – again.
So many things now could be done. We could ignore the EU and their meddling regulations – as the French do – we need to build up our economic and social strength. We could build up strength in EU alliances until we have a Trojan Horse – we also have 2 BNP MEP’s (could be useful). The Conservatives should get a mandate for soverignty through a referendum, and mobalise action through their local democracy ideas – strength in numbers and education.
The signing of the Lisbon Treaty without a mandate from the owners of UK Ltd – cannot be lawful. If the EU can represent ideas until they are accepted, I cannot see why the UK cannot take a leaf out of their book and do the same, in getting this Treaty made illigal – but this is a sideline to action in building up our forces. We’ve got to get cleaver.
The only think I am not convinced of is where the Tory leader actually sits on this. He seems Eurosceptic, yet I have a feeling that he is a Europhile. Cameron’s got to provide some unequivocal leadership now !! That at this point is the most important task.
Almost hidden in the current issue of Private Eye magazine is a very interesting story. To summarise, the Constitutional Court of Germany has decided that the EU does not represently Germany democratically enough for the EU to have the last word on German constitutional matters. Furthermore a case on German employment law is currently in progress which if upheld will directly coflict with EU law.
At this point, we will have a very interesting confrontation between German Law and EU Law, and the net outcome will very likely be the German courts telling the EU that this is the way things will be, and if they don’t like it then what, precisely, are they going to do about it?
At this point I would strongly suspect that the EU response will be to quietly turn a blind eye to the matter and hope that nobody else notices the incident. If someone else notices, then at that point the EU as we know it is completely and utterly sunk since the overarching principle it works to is that its law can overrule local member state law; if this isn’t the case then member states can simply ignore EU law.
So I would therefore ask that you keep an eye on this topic, sir, and should the German courts win, I ask that you publicly ask questions of ministers in the House, asking what their response to this state of affairs is.
You’ll get the standard mumbled non-response, of course, but that isn’t the point; the public has to be made aware that EU law can be locally overruled, and a mention in the House of Commons is the cheapest publicity going.
JimF is right. We should have remained in EFTA and nothing less than similar status to Norway is acceptable.
Can we agree on one fundamental point ~ the EU is corrupt and undemocratic, reform is not possible and any attempts to do so will inevitably fail. Witness the imposed President who will have less of a mandate than even crooks like Karzai or Ahmadinejad or the fact the accounts never pass audit.
We have not been asked if we wish to be a member of a European super-state (unlike some other countries) and therefore the choices before us are as follows:
1. Continue down the path of EU integration as suggested by the political elite
2. Withdraw entirely
3. Fundamentally renegotiate an ‘associate membership’
If this is not on offer from any mainstream party then don’t be surprised when idiot minority parties pick up seats and influence. These are desperately dangerous times and it baffles me why the major party leaders cannot see it. Recession and the collapse of a national identity brought about Hitler and his ilk. Are we certain this could not happen today? I’m not.
Mr Griffin must be toasting Mr Cameron’s volte face.
As usual John I agree with you. Is it possible to regain some control without the need for lengthy negotiations? Could we amend the European Act so any new or amended EU Directive has to be voted on in Parliament before it becomes law in the UK instead of going through Ministerial instruments? Shouldn’t Parliament vote annually to allow the Government to hand over the Billions we payout to fund the Commission and for the Audit Commission investigate this funding in the same way as it checks other Government spending. Finally can we not compel EU Commissionaires to appear before Select Committees at least once a year?
The financial meltdown has been a huge distraction for people, taking their attention away from the fact that Europe has stealthily been positioning its chess-pieces. The UK has been bundled up like food for a spider, effortlessly and efficiently, without the need for bullets, tanks or armies.
Ordinary people have been duped by politicians’ stories of ” the EU is good for Britain and the British people”, without asking themselves exactly what the “good” actually is. Rather than protest, they have just carried on watching Eastenders, going to the pub on a Friday and generally believing that it will “all go away”.
I have been reading about some of the proposed actions being lined up to come out of Brussels, during the coming months. It’s difficult to get a good grasp of the truth, but I see reductions in rights for consumers; tracker-boxes in cars, to (so-called) “provide the police with hard evidence in the event of road accidents” (no doubt with mission-creep attached); a widespread increase in compulsory identity cards; sharing of personal data; a possible new EU tax that will be whipped directly out of one’s pay packet; just for starters.
And this, Europhiles believe, is a new utopia? We should have extricated ourselves from this mess years ago. Enough people in this country realised the dangers but either did nothing about it or were squashed. Now we are in danger of seeing Parliament turned into a rubber-stamp machine, since it appears that it will have no effective power to challenge future European laws.
Yes, ratifying Lisbon does change the political scenery, but I see no reason why the UK public’s opinion should be continually suppressed. We all know what happens when you plug a volcano…..
This is the nub of the matter – do we really want to be part of a constant, remorseless, unlimited, irreversible, forced process of “ever closer union” with our neighbours, or not?
Ask a question like that in a referendum, and it’s very likely that the majority of Britons would now decide that they didn’t want their country to be further integrated with other European countries, as fast as possible, until there was simply nothing left to integrate.
But ask the same Britons whether they wanted to leave the EU and it’s very likely that the majority answer would be “no”, because they didn’t want to be “isolated” from those other countries with all the dire consequences which would be threatened.
Herein lies the paradox and the problem, because the treaty commitment to a process of “ever closer union” is fundamental to the EU, and always has been.
It’s in the very first line of the Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome, immediately after the list of the six heads of state who were making the treaty:
“DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe”
and re-iterated in the Preamble to the Maastricht Treaty on European Union:
“RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe”.
And it will still be there after December 1st when the Treaty of Lisbon has come into legal force, as can easily be checked by searching for that phrase in the consolidated versions of the treaties as amended, here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:0001:01:EN:HTML
Note that while this “ever closer union” was to be “among the peoples of Europe” – and note, “peoples”, plural – in 1957 the six governments agreed the Treaty of Rome without consulting their respective peoples, and in each case the treaty was approved by the national parliament without any serious thought that maybe they should ask the people directly whether they wanted to embark on this course.
There were no national referendums on the Treaty of Rome; the first referendums were not until some fifteen years later, when the peoples of Ireland, Denmark and Norway voted on whether to join the EEC, and the French also voted on whether those countries and the UK should be allowed to join.
In the event, the Norwegians said “no”. The first of two occasions when they have made that wise choice, to the great annoyance of most of their political class – who are still very keen to join the EU politicians’ “club”, so they can start to free themselves from national democratic control.
I shall listen with great interest to whatever Cameron has to say this afternoon.
If he says that we must stay in the EU but also call a halt to further integration and start to repatriate powers, then I’ll have to ask myself whether he simply doesn’t understand that under its founding treaties the process of “ever closer union” is inescapable while we remain in the EU, or he realises that and is just following half a century of Tory tradition by trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
We should not be concerned.
This development is not the end of UK’s EU membership but it is the beginning of the end. If Cameron accepts anything less than the unilateral repatriation of all unnecessary EU powers he is a political dead man walking. I personally think he is too cowardly to lead us out of this mess. If Cameron tries to spin anything less he will be toppled when the next Brussels grandee oversteps the mark.
In my electorate (Stroud) the sitting Labour member is only there because the UKIP candidate took votes from the Tory.There will be more like him next election. I for one will vote UKIP if Cameron wimps out again.
At this moment I am sick to the back teeth of weak Tory leadership.
“The EU has declared war on the UK”. What sort of language is this from an elected politician? The British Government has signed up to a treaty, nobody forced them to do it and they had the legal right to do so.
A very disappointing article and will surely ensure you are not included in a Cameron Government.
Others have said it all! We applaud your stance but it is not that of the Conservative party. We expect nothing meaningful from Cameron and would not believe him now anyway.
Cant disagree with that, if or when the Conservatives win the next General election they should declare ‘our ratification’ of the Constitreaty illegal and void, and then hold a referendum on EUSSR membership and let people finally have a say, i will stand by any outcome of that referendum, will they?.
You know, if something is built on lies, deception, propaganda, and broken promises, it will never EVER work.
It seems strange that on a day when 5 of our soldiers die trying to enable democracy in Afghanistan, we get drawn further into the most un-democratic body in our recent history – the EU.
How can our politicians continue to support this Lisbon deal in the sure knowledge that most UK people don’t support it?
Steve
I have plenty of sympathy with those who say that the UK must abide by treaties it has signed, but with a caveat.
Imagine that the UK breaks the terms of the Lisbon Treaty, with a mandate from the UK people to do so.
The consequence would be that other countries would no longer be able to trust the UK to keep its word when it signs its democracy away without a popular mandate, to a fledgling super-state which has no legitimacy in the eyes of most of the UK population.
That might well prevent countries from entering into similar treaties with the UK in the future. Many here will wonder if that is such a bad thing.
Your argument is unanswerable, Mr Redwood. Just as much to be admired is your cool refusal to criticise Mr Cameron at this juncture. Even if we can do nothing to escape from the toils of Brussels, getting rid of this Labour government remains a worthwhile, indeed a vital aim. There is also a tactical advantage in keeping the issue cool at the moment, for the next election may well see not only a Conservative majority but a Eurosceptical majority too. In such a case, much that is difficult even to articulate now, because of the nature of the Tory coalition, will slide smoothly back on to the government agenda. To stand a chance of pulling this off, we must be careful and disciplined in the run up to the election. It all comes down to playing a long game with a good deal of “sang-froid”.
Well, the big day has finally arrived where we finally get to know what ‘not letting matters rest’ means. I waited a long time for this and it will be interesting to see how the new policy compares to your ‘power to the people’ post earlier this year.
http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/28/power-to-the-people/
The election could be decided today; my vote at least will be. All the speculation and media reports give me a really nasty feeling that I am going to be mightily disappointed though, but let’s wait to see what he says :-[
It’s NuLab that has declared war on us, perhaps at the behest of the EU Commission and its Commissar Mandelson, but the current government are the traitors who have signed away our sovereignty without asking our permission. Brown and his evil coven must be put on trial for treason when they lose power.
The USE project (United States of Europe) covers an large time frame. A set-back of a decade is no real concern, especially once Maastricht, and now Lisbon, were in place. Now we are well and truly shafted.
Withdrawal from the EU is the ONLY way out of this mess, not negotiation. Unfortunately, The Brown One has left a bigger immediate problem than Lisbon, and that is his insane profligacy. The next government must first restore the public finances to some semblance of normality before it can even start thinking about a serious challenge to the EU’s hegemony. Britain has lost almost all of its credibility under NuLab (is there ANYTHING that they haven’t trashed in the last 12 years???), and is almost bankrupt. The EU will simply laugh if we start sabre rattling for major changes now.
First, sort out the public finances and the economy. In the meantime set up a suitable enquiry to look at Blair’s and Brown’s crimes against the Crown, the country, and the people. Kicking the EU, the Commission and the Council where it hurts will have to wait until we have some credibility again. Maybe in a second Conservative term?
There is an issue here that the UK is at a crossroad of chosing to remain in the EU and abiding by all its rules or voting on leaving the EU and doing just that. The decision has to be what better serves the interest of the UK economy and that is very difficulty for the normal voter to do. Do we stay and gradually become part of the United States of Europe – I am sure that one will come back again in the next few years or do we join Norway and Switzerland and have greater control over our own affairs. I think that is where the debate should go and that is regretably the referendum that (with Lisbon ratified by all EU members) should be offered to the British people.
Well said. Optimistic thought: maybe the Lisbon treaty will push us a little closer to complete withdrawal.
The bravery of the Tory party is only surpassed by their brazen propensity to lie about all things EU.
I say brave because now that ratification of the EUconstitreaty is assured they can promise, bluster, rail and criticise all they like but will not admit that they can do nothing but blame it all on New Labour. (who signed the Maastricht treaty?).
Call me Dave, in 2007, gave a “cast iron guarantee” of a referendum, he lied and knew that he was lying, just like his predecessor Ted Heath who also lied and knew he was lying.
Here’s a “cast iron guarantee” I will not, ever again, vote Tory.
Perhaps you can supply the answer to the following:
Is the treaty signed by the Irish and Czech Republics, word for word, the same the treaty signed by Gordon Brown?
If the answer is no, is it legal?
If the answer is yes, What compromises were offered to the Irish and Czechs.
A referendum on the Lisbon Treaty was the best thing on offer to express our opinion on the EU but it was a cop out which did not address the issue.
I am an old geezer of 70 and have waited patiently and voted Conservative in the belief in the first place they would not get us into the Common Market and since that they would be the only option to get us out, some hopes.
We are about to have a re run of the 1973/75 debacle which followed Edward Heath’s lies and treachery. A promise of renegotiation of the Lisbon Treaty followed by a referendum. There will be talks which achieve nothing, they will be presented as a success, the gullible public will fall for it and vote a resounding “Yes” and nothing will change. Stitched up!
I have no intentions of ever voting again until I get a proper say in this countries membership of this tower of Babel. MP’s expenses are just another bit the of Jo Moore effect?
I am glad to see that one poster has got it correct, the EU is working precisely as designed and so there will be NO re-negotiation. To even think it is stupid. What a shame Cameron did not expose the LT/Constitution for what it was at the start, but he preferred to continue with the lies that have been the hallmark of every government since Heath. I am willing to bet that he will not concede that our Country has been given away to a foreign power but will fudge and lie again. Whatever he may say today, he cannot be trusted.
Can anyone quote the precise occasion when Cameron promised a referendum? I find it difficult to believe he would have made an unconditional promise of this kind. My guess (though someone out there may prove me wrong) is that he said something like ‘our present policy is to hold a referendum’ or ‘Prior to the ratification of Lisbon, we will offer the British people a referendum’.
To promise a referendum after ratification is mad because what it implies is that every treaty made by every legally elected British government can later be undone. If that is so, what is the point in making a treaty ever again?
John
This is the time to be reconsidering your options along with millions of other Conservatives and Eurosceptic Labourites. Yours is a much larger decision than the guy like me who just has to place a cross on a ballot paper and pay his taxes, but equally you have more to gain, too, for yourself and for the Country.
There is no point in being in politics unless you have and can use the power of your convictions to force change. Do you want to be part of a fatally wounded Tory party, being dragged along by the EU and a few Grandees? Then you should join forces with Hannan, Carswell, Cash et al to turn UKIP into a fully fledged force in British politics. You will be part of a party of principle, not one of expediency, fudge and muddle. Now is your time of decision. Go for it now or forever regret that you didn’t.
‘Your leader has reneged on his cast-iron promise to give the people a say in this matter’ as in ‘Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations’
Now, you might say, that is straightforward enough. But that was when the treaty had not been ratified by all the parties. The referendum was to be on whether to ratify the treaty; the ’say’ was not just ‘And how do you feel about Lisbon?’ like some therapist trying to bring about ‘closure’.
So, since we cannot deratify, if there is to be a referendum it will have to be on our relations with the EU. Whether to withdraw, or repatriate certain powers. The new alliance in the Euro-parliament could strengthen the latter approach. I doubt whether the former would get a majority. But there has been no reneging.
JR: “The EU has declared war on the UK.”
Really John, this is wearing a bit thin these days.
JR: “Parliamentary sovereignty has to be reasserted.”
Ho Ha, it’s the way you tell them, Mr Redwood.
Parliament is only the members:
1. Who bother to turn out to debates.
2. Those who aren’t bought and paid for by party graft desguised as expenses.
3. Who aren’t on the executive payroll desguised as the Minister for Sport. FFS!
How many might that be, would the fingers of one hand suffice?
Then, look at the Lords. Stuffed with former EU lackies and Labour Lickspittles and that is just the Tory benches.
It isn’t that easy.
Today I was teaching some East Europeans English. Apart from the language barrier, they are us . I am a European like them. And, I depend, like everyone else, on the economy, which cannot afford to turn down such a huge market as Europe.
I cannot walk away from Europe: I am European! And Europe is governed, after all, by a collection of people who were selected by their countries.
Even in the early 19th century, the “concert of Europe” had to face the facts: England is a European country.
BUT the people in charge at Brussels today are not trustworthy and they do not have our best interests at heart. They lie, they cheat, they treat us like idiots and they steal (Marta Andreasen). Also (BSE scare, Common Agricultural Policy, banking crisis, Spanish fishing) they are first of all national, then, secondly, European. And they are in no sense at all democratic although they pretend, quite cynically, to be democratic (Ireland’s double referendum, shouting at the elected President of the Czech Republic).
I am reminded of the late Fuhrer who, when asked by Mr Chamberlain to sign a promise of non agression at Munich said “I signed the piece of paper for the nice old man.” And poor old Chamberlain believed him! In the car with Goering later that day he said: “Now for Apfal Weiss (the invasion of Poland).”
Dealing with people like that ends up in war and that, I deeply regret, is one possible way out of this present mess which the future may hold. It is our traditional way of standing up to tyranny: Felipe II, Louis XIV, Napoleon, the Kaiser, Hitler. (“Very well, alone!”)
Mr Cameron’s speech this afternoon was a genuine working compromise. He obviously meant business and gave himself, if elected, just five year to sort the problem out. Otherwise? We’ll come to that when it happens………
Sadly I do not believe Cameron is up to the job, Vaclav appears to be twice the leader and yet he has been beaten down by the excommunist Czech establishment who are keen on the giant socialist structure if the EU.
A referendum would give our prime minister the power to withdraw from this anti democratic monster.
All we need is international trade, individual EU countries will not boycott the UK if we leave the superstate. We would be free to make our products and services more attractive once free of their directives and insane red tape.
Or lets scrap Westminster, pay tax to the EU and they can then sponsor our (OECD highest %) deficit and pay all the debt, the public sector pensions, the railways, PFI, NDA, QUANGOs, bailouts etc etc
UKIP will get my vote unless DC grows a pair and your party guarantees a free peoples vote. If the population vote yes I will despair and leave Europe until after the eventual bloodshed and seperation.
As all these faux-angry posters well know , at the time Cameron made his “cast iron guarantee” several nations had voted against the constitution, and it looked like Brown was about to go to the country. Therefore his error was in niaivety as to the anti democratic nature of the EU, and Brown’s cowardice (and later treachery) , a referendum (unless it was a plain IN/OUT question) would achieve nothing, zilch, nada.
And as much as I’d like out of this nasty little club the sad fact is that the public (as in 1975) would be duped into staying in through the weight of media, government, propaganda and FUD.
So be careful what you wish for, if we lost that referendum things would be 100 times worse.
Dear Mr. Redwood,
Can you please tell me what the position of the British Parliament is?
I was taught that at the heart of our “unwritten” constitution lay the unchangeable fact that Parliament was Sovereign.
This meant that Parliament could make or unmake any law.
Has this changed? What is all this despairing talk and angst about it’s a done deal, we can’t go back etc?
As far as I am concerned, there is nothing more important than the continuation of a free, democratic Britain, whatever the cost. Parliament has given much of our nationhood away to unelected and unaccountable bodies in the EU and UK. However, Parliament can take it back – any time it chooses, no matter how seemingly complex or costly.
I think Mr. Cameron is missing the point and in 2010 may well see today as the beginning of the time when he lost the election. Renegotiation? Agreement of 27 countries? etc? Dream on.
I want to be able to vote on my country’s adoption of the Lisbon Treaty, and Mr Cameron promised I would be able to.
Why can’t I?
Reply: The UK has been subjected to European law as well as to the rule of Parliament by this country’s signature to Treaties culminating in Lisbon. The rule of European law can be removed only by withdrawal from the EU, which could be done unilaterally . European law can only be changed or amended by agreement through EU legal and political processes.
After Cameron’s speech today, my vote is going to UKIP.
There will be no more EU treaties, the Lisbon treaty is self amending, so to what “future” treaties is Dave referring?
John – it’s very simple. No referendum on whether we are in / out, no vote. I say this as a life-long Tory voter. There is no more important issue than the ability of this island race to decide its own future, for good or bad. If this means a hung Parliament with Mr Brown continuing as Prime Minister, so be it. If the party thinks it can treat 2 million of its own voters with utter distain, let’s see what happens in May. It is not beyond the realms that having so badly miscalculated and having grasped defeat from the the jaws of victory, the Conservative party will be the one looking for a new leader in May. Someone who has the gumption to actually listen to what the people are saying and give us a vote.
[I do not know what focus groups you are using, but virtually every Tory voter I know is currently planning to vote UKIP. Unscientific yes, but the party should be very worried indeed about this.]
Bill: “Can anyone quote the precise occasion when Cameron promised a referendum?”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece
The media have teased Cameron about his ‘cast-iron guarantee’ but perhaps more unfortunate is his statement: ‘But there’s nothing “new” about breaking your promises to the British public. It’s classic Labour.’
By giving us a chance to vote on Europe, what does Cameron stand to lose? Brown failed as PM because he did not seek the required mandate when he had a chance. He chickened out. Now it looks like DC is chickening out.
Hear the people. Act for the people. Win our trust and respect. Lead us.
So are you for principle or party?
“David Cameron promises Sovereignty Bill to stop Britain losing power to Brussels”
The advertising executive that now runs the Blu Labour party writes some copy in The Times, today.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6902986.ece
David, it’s not new laws or another constitutional court – by the way a constitutional court worked for the Germans and the Czech people, didn’t it? – we need. It’s our existing laws enforced properly.
How about the doctrine of implied repeal, how about the idea that a parliament cannot bind its successor?
How about Carswell’s, Great repeal bill?
We do not need new innovative legislation, God knows we have had enough of that from the EU, we simply need good old British laws enforced and by ‘good old’ I mean anything before about 1973.
Voters had every opportunity to vote to leave the EU by supporting UKIP at the last EU elections. They did not, and the anti EU vote was exposed as being a highly vocal minority. Now that Cameron can no longer hide behind his call for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty the Conservative’s true policy of full support for Britain’s continuing membership of the EU is exposed for all to see. I will happily email the Tory EU manifesto to anyone who asks for it, where you can read their full support for working in the EU, expanding the EU and committing their MEPs to campaign against climate change. The EU has delivered decades of peace & prosperity, extending personal rights and freedoms, protecting consumers from shoddy goods, protecting the environment, and allowing us to travel freely to work and play anywhere in Europe. The Lisbon Treaty streamlines EU operations, getting rid of 1/3 of the Commission, transfering power away from unelected commisioners to the elected European Parliament and National Governments, and it puts an end to the ability of a single intransigent state to block long overdue reforms with a veto. Euroscepticism is a meaningless concept, the only debate worth having is In or Out, not varying degrees of ‘In’. The reason why the majority of Britons want to stay in is because we get so much benefit from working together with our European allies for the common good.
First and foremost we need rid of the ‘Labour’ on our backs.
They continue to feed the banks ( possible potential jobs in the future you see for some of them perhaps), and keeping the jobs for boys Euro merrygoround going. Meanwhile P45 ’s abound, and the low paid and powerless people pay for it.
But let us not pretend..that this is sufficient. I fear we are walking into a dark period where the legitimacy of power will be openly ignored and even worse.
Ponder this: The USA union was forced by arms not by votes.
This is why i have no words to express my utter contempt for many of our so called representative MP’s.
My only hope is that cooperation with the rest of Europe’s real democrats will not let this travesty stand.
Also why pay for 2 goverments and get none. Unless we need to stay to receive massive EU aid because of Labour incompetence then why? Any backroom deals done for jobs? Sorry but it has to be asked?
What can i do with a MY worthless vote? UkIP.
From a previous poster
“It seems strange that on a day when 5 of our soldiers die trying to enable democracy in Afghanistan”
I know it’s hard to keep up with the latest reason we are supposedly letting our best people die in Afghanistan (you know, the mission where they weren’t going to fire a shot), having had
~ to fight the drug trade
~ to support democracy
~ to promote the rule of law
~ to develop the Afghan police
~ to fight terrorists, and most laughably of all
~ so girls could go to school (!)
But today’s reason is apprently to ‘cut down on immigration…’
Not so much mission creep, as out-and-out gallop. Has a foreign adventure ever been so ill-conceived?
No, I can’t explain it either
Bill: Cameron made a promise to hold a referendum he did not qualify it in the manner you suggest.
26 Sep 2007 in his article in the SUN
Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations.
No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum.
26 May 2009, in his speech “Fixing Broken Politics”
We will therefore hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, pass a law requiring a referendum to approve any further transfers of power to the EU, negotiate the return of powers, and require far more detailed scrutiny in Parliament of EU legislation, regulation and spending.
# smon 05 Nov 2009 at 12:01 am: Also why pay for 2 goverments and get none.
Wales and Scotland pay for three governments and get none!
How to manipulate public opinion
1. Wait for a big Tory announcement
2. Put up lots of comments on blogs claiming to be from Tories disgusted with it.
3. Perhaps fool some proper Tories into agreeing and adding negative comment.
4. Wait for the MSM to pick up and widely spread the “fact” that Tory grassroots HATE the Tory announcement AND D Cameron.
5. Repair to the Spinner’s Arms for a well-earned drink or two.
Alan Douglas
It is rare that I have to praise Roger Helmer; but his analysis that Cameron is ‘confused’ is spot on. I hope that he now follows his conscience out of the Tory Party; who have always been wholly committed to Britain staying in the EU. I welcome the Lisbon Treaty, as it will streamline the EU, reduce the number of commissioners by 1/3, take power away from the unelected and give it to the elected EU Parliament and back to member states. It also ensures that a single intransigent state cannot block badly needed reforms, such as abolition of the CAP, by using a national veto. It will give us EU fit for the 21st C. If you want to leave the EU then wake up and support UKIP not David Cameron. Euroscepticism is a Tory sham to hide their Pro-EU policies; the issue is In or Out not varying shades of In. John you are in the wrong party and it is time to leave
@1 “All good stuff. Of course, the question is, what are you going to do about it ?”
Bring in the 1972 European Communities Act (Repeal) Bill as a private member’s bill?
Why don’t we “do a Germany” as Dan H. suggests and legislate to make our Parliament and our courts the final arbiters in any matters concerning the UK? It’s already been mooted by Bill Cash after all.
We should still have out Referendum regardless since that is what the public want and what they expect. It will help to restore their faith in honest politicians who stick by their promises.
I’ve been a disaffected Tory since the Maastrict Treaty fiasco although I often vote Tory on certain issues. Not any more! My faith and trust have simple gone into the wind – along with Cameron’s promises.
Reply: We are promised a sovereignty of Parliament Bill. That could emulate the German version, or go further. I await the details.
72 comments already John! A sure indication that there are some very very angry Tories out there.
If a referendum on Lisbon is out of the question for Mr Cameron that will only focus disillusioned Tories on the real issue, that it is time to consider departing the EU altogether.
Cameron should stop listening to focus groups and get out among the real people. UKIP are the real conservatives now.
The EU is unlawfull, Parliament can no more surrender sovereignty than legalise murder.
A referendum is not needed, you cannot make lawyull that that is unlawfull.
Besides there is so much voter fraud out there, I would not trust the vote.
If the EU is prepared to ignore the wishes of European peoples do people seriously believe that they will not fix a few votes.
And what do out Generals think of this, not a word from them.
Cameron has signed his own P45 by not standing up and declaring himself as Eurosceptic.
Now the challenge is to unite the multitude of fragments who are against the EU – including UKIP ?, BNP, LPUK, etc…
Where there is common ground it must be taken and held, ignoring differences until the EU is expelled – then we can decide for ourselves how we will be governed.
While we remain disparate, the EU will win – we must unite to win this war and put our differences aside for the moment.
I have just been looking at David Cameron’s blog on the Conservative site. He tries his best to fudge his non-policy on Lisbon, but it is clear to me that the party is about to haemorrhage members as never before, most expressing a wish to vote UKIP.
I always thought that Cameron was a weak leader, and now we know the truth. I will not vote Conservative this time, voting UKIP as I did in the EU election. I am not afraid of putting Labour back in power, as I genuinely feel that all the major parties are indistinguishable.
At some point, it will be impossible for Central Office to suppress the massive loss of support that I am sure is going on as I write. If the Tory party has a future, it will take a change of leadership to secure it.
[...] It should remember that to many British voters the EU is just a source of higher taxes to pay its bills, and more needless regulation. A body like this if it wishes to govern us in many areas need consent . …. Any change to the new status quo would require unanimous agreement from the existing 25 member states. How likely is that? The fact is, we’re stuffed. Thank you, politicians. I find it almost unbelievable, and unbelievably sad, that a once-great, once-free, …More [...]