Nov 22 2009
What should Eurosceptics do now?
Many contributors to this blog are badly shaken by the way the Lisbon Treaty has been forced upon us and all chance of a referendum denied, when all three main political parties promised one in 2005. I am asked what should they do. Some advise me to leave the Conservatives and join UKIP. Let me explain why I think the only thing to do is to support the Conservatives.
My readers should understand two things about me. Firstly,I believe in our country and its long march to democratic self government. The story of England was until 1972 the story of the enfranchisement of the working man and woman, the democratisation of political and economic power. That became the story of other parts of the UK as they joined our Union. It is a moving tale, and one which has always been in my heart. I voted “No” as a young Conservative County Councillor in 1975 when we had a referendum on the “Common market” because I read the Treaty of Rome and saw they had much more in mind than the Common market UK politicians were recommending to us. I have always since accepted the democratic view of the British people that they wished to stay in “Europe”, but always believed what most thought they were voting for was a set of trading arrangements, not a superstate. I have fought every inch of the way against successive Treaties that wished to extend Brussels power, and above all against the single currency which was the guts of the Maastricht Treaty. Secondly, I did not stand as an MP because I need a job and it is the only one I could do. I do it because I regard it as privilege to represent people, and because I want to make a contribution to the recovery of our country in several senses.
On Friday night I spoke at a Conservative Association dinner. There were 130 people there according to the organisers, a larger crowd than they have been used to in recent years. When I went round all the tables during the dinner I asked each one what was the most important issue to them. Every table said it was the unacceptable power of the EU and the appointment of the President and High Representative. When I asked what else mattered they said the Credit Crunch, unemployment, poverty, bad state schools,high taxes, the Council Tax increases and even open primaries. So my frst message to those Eurosceptics outside the Tory tent is you would have a lot in common with the membership, as like you they think the damage done to our democratic self government is fundamental.
Why have so many strong Eurosceptics joined or remained within the Conservative party? Our thinking is as follows. A re-elected Labour government would carry on the sell out. They after all have given more power away in 12 years than all previous governments over a much longer time period. They signed Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon. So it is most important to stop Labour winning. As bad would be a Lib Dem/Labour coalition, as the Lib Dems are Euroenthusiasts, keen on the whole plan of more central European power and more regional government power, putting our national democracy into a nut cracker. It could also be bad to have a Lib Dem/Conservative coalition for all sorts of reasons, but especially for European policy where Lib Dem federalists would be pressing the Conservatives not to seek the return of powers or to resist further power grabs.
Some Eurosceptics outside the main parties are so disillusioned they say Eurosceptics should support no party. The trouble with that is abstention looks like apathy or acceptance. It is not a clear voice of protest, so no sensible Eurosceptic would do that.
That leaves supporting the Conservatives or supporting UKIP. The polls indicate that UKIP will come nowhere near winning a single Westminster seat. Whilst many of us may be concerned about the EU issue, most voters are more concerned about jobs, taxes, schools and what they see as other domestic issues. UKIP’s strategy is mainly to pressurise the Tories by targetting the Tories. It is the reverse of a helpful strategy for Euroscepticism. If they put their best known people into high profile campaigns against the main federalists, the Lib Dem and Labour leaders who have got us into the current EU mess, I could understand it. If they pinned down Lib/Lab figures whilst Eurosceptic Conservatives got on with winning the Con/Lab marginals that would be helpful. Instead the idea seems to be to try to prevent maybe 20 Conservatives winning marginals, delivering them instead to federalists. When you add in UKIP’s difficulty in keeping MEPs in their party and out of trouble, their difficulty in settling down with one leader and it is difficult to see why any true Eurosceptic would think they are our salavation.
Will David Cameron and William Hague give strong Eurosceptics everything they want? No, because they do not wish to undertake unilateral withdrawal from the whole thing. The best we can hope for is some reversal of direction, after years of a strong flow of powers to Brussels from the UK. If we do not take this oppotunity to have a Eurosceptic majority in the Commons to represent the Eurosceptic majority in the country, we should expect more of the same that has so saddened some and maddened others over the last decade. We need even more Eurosceptics within the Conseravtive party, to press from within for a strong renegotiation of powers, and for a clear and effective reassertion of British sovereignty through UK legislation.
John Redwood has been the Member of Parliament for Wokingham since 1987. First attending Kent College, Canterbury, he graduated from Magdalen College...
It’s all very well trying to placate the Eurosceptics by suggesting that Cameron is the “lesser of the two evils” but I’m afraid you’re missing the point.
Whether we are in the EU or not should be a matter for debate and then put to a democratic vote of the electorate! It’s simply unacceptable for a bunch of CIVIL SERVANTS
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Sue Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 am
to take that decision for us!
(sorry its truncated)…
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Ross J Warren Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:34 am
Which is not what happened. Nu-Labour took the decision and its simply not right to Blame D.C. for any part of it. As it is David and his team have outlined good and very euro-sceptic policy directions. Indeed I was pushing for these long before they emerged, as they are a rational response to a mess that is not of Conservative making. (Other than the fact that we allowed ourselves to be split and thus had no say in the matter.)
William may have said things that undermined in peoples eyes D.C’s approach, but again he is pushing the rational and intelligent approach. If we are to unpick any part of Lisbon we can only do that by looking at the Treaty of Rome, and examining our own laws to see if there was a legal error made. This isn’t going to be possible inside weeks and William rightly said it will be Five years or more before we know what approach to take. As I am certain you believe as I do “legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus” we must base all of our deliberation on the law and not act outside of this important guiding principle.
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Sue Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Oh please, pass me a tissue! Poor Dave!
He’s not willing to actually commit to anything of any substance! I just do not believe that the European Union have us by the short and curlies!
Treaties have been broken throughout history and this one happens to be illegal! All three parties went against their manifestos to give us a referendum.
I thought Conservatives believed in democracy, they obviously don’t and they have lost my vote.
How many countries do you think will question their membership of the EU if the UK has the courage to give us a referendum?
Simple truth is, the Tories have turned into a bunch of cowards and are playing the blame game.
Ross J Warren Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:18 am
“Oh please, pass me a tissue! Poor Dave!” I agree
But come on Sue, Dave has already given away (to Labour to often) far to many good policy ideas, and has already revealed far more than most opposition leaders have in our long Democratic history. In the old days politics was far more respected by the general public. We do ourselves no favours by giveing away to much and allowing Labour and the gutter press, an opportunity to put a spin on our policies.
How many countries do you think will question their membership of the EU if the UK has the courage to give us a referendum?
Another person after a destructive in/out referendum? Well look this is a democracy and there is a proper way of going about such things. What will it gain you, if the only Euro-sceptic party is left far from power. UKIP will not win the election. A hung parliament would make matters far worse. I would urge you to vote Conservative and then lobby your MP. Saying that the views of a few thousands even a few tens of thousands is not a majority in anyone’s definition of democracy.
Thanks for that history and helpful summary and recommendation.
Since there appears to be such a large, possibly overwhelming, eurosceptic presence within the Conservative Party, should not all Tory MPs/candidates declare their credentials in the same way as you have done?
Despite all you say about the general good of ensuring a Conservative majority, I would still find it difficult to vote for my present incumbent unless he were to be as forthright as you on the subject and expresses determination to do combat.
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A.Sedgwick Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Makes sense – we need to start voting for individuals not blind party allegiance.
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Your piece is the first sensible argument to encourage me to remain in The Party. I’m still terribly disappointed with The leadership on this and other issues.
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Steve Tierney Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Loads of us, are, OldRightie, Loads of us are.
My own feeling about it is to remind myself that the Conservatives are every bit as much MY party, and YOUR party, as they are a hivemind Europhile Tory’s or even David Cameron’s.
I’ve paid my membership, leafletted, campaigned, canvassed, debated, organised, fundraised, donated, stood for election and won & stared horrified as the results rolled in for the last three elections.
Nobody is forcing me out of my own party, particularly not when my view is actually the prevalent view.
Leaders come and go, times change, but the only way kill kill our ethos is to force us all out. I’m not playing their game. Change from within. Constructive disobedience. That’s the key.
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APL Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:25 am
Steve Tierney: “Change from within. Constructive disobedience. That’s the key.”
Good luck, when you manage to change the Tory party to something that actually resembles the grass roots – such as they are, I might consider voting for the Tories again.
Until then, I will not vote for a party which gives succor to the likes of Kenneth Clarke, especially when such people have made a habit of undermining and destroying Tory party Unity, when such people have no scruples about colluding with Tony Blair in his first years as Prime minister. When other people like John Redwood who has been loyal to the leadership is kept outside the shadow cabinet.
I will not vote for a party that jumps on any and every fashionable band wagon just because it is rumbling by.
The Tory party has failed to take advantage of the last decade to present a consistent and coherent policy agenda, the result of a group of senior ‘big cats’ who have been running interference from within the party.
Your chosen technique can be successful, it has been practiced by our opponents, it is just that the likes of Ken Clarke are prepared to see the party riven and destroyed as a cohesive force in British politics, rather than see their preeminent agenda of the EU fail.
Reply: Both John Major as PM and William Hague when campaigning for the leadership declined to rule the Euro out in principle. We are now a party against the Euro in principle. Some of us stayed and argued our case and won. If we had not done so the UK could now be facing a choice between three pro Euro currency parties.
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APL Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm
JR: “If we had not done so the UK could now be facing a choice between three pro Euro currency parties.”
Wonderful, so instead of three pro Euro currency parties, we now have the choice of three pro EU parties.
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.
brian kelly Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Completely correct, John Redwood. And what I am becoming more certain of is that eurosceptics must stay within the party and vote – and then, post election, pressurize the party and your MP from within. When thought about it is the only rational way that change as regards our relationship with the EU will be hastened.
JR: “I have always since accepted the democratic view of the British people that they wished to stay in “Europe” ..”
The last time the public had an option to express its view in a democratic manner, was half a lifetime ago, I did not get the opportunity to express my opinion then, but I would like that opportunity now. The Tories have now denied me that opportunity.
The Irish have had two or three, four or six if you count the reruns, opportunities to express their opinion on the EU, all the while being showered with money extracted from in part British tax payers.
I have no particular sympathy for the Irish, they fought for independence, then threw it away. More fool them.
I would like one opportunity now to express my opinion today. You by siding with Cameron and the dishonest quisling Tory policy have become a part of the problem, not what was hoped part of the solution.
JR: “They [Labour] signed Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon.”
You rightly blame Labour for Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon, I blame Tories for our accession to the Treaty of Rome on highly unfavorable terms in the first instance. To right that wrong it should be the Tories to get us out. If you refuse to do that, then it will have to be other patriotic conservative minded people, in another party if need be. If that turns out to be the UKIP, well so be it.
JR: “Will David Cameron and William Hague give strong Eurosceptics everything they want? No, because they do not wish to undertake unilateral withdrawal from the whole thing.”
Ah, so much for the ‘David Cameron is an EUrosceptic’, that we have so often heard on this blog.
Cameron wants to stay in the EUropean Union, well, well. I have to say I am not surprised!
It is noww confirmed the Tory party is not the party for those of us who wish to extract ourselves from the influence of a foreign power.
But it is worse than that, because every aspect of the Tory manifesto – such as it is – from Localism, a horrible term by the way, to inheritance tax, is dependent on the right to make policy and pass supporting legislation through the British Parliament, that will not be overruled by a preeminent authority. While Lisbon stands, while the treaties of the European Union have authority in this country, the Tory manifesto are nothing but a fraudulent confidence trick.
The Tory party cannot be an honest party, while its promises are subject to revision or revocation from an higher authority.
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John,
I believe you slightly misrepresent Ukip’s position.
“When you add in UKIP’s difficulty in keeping MEPs in their party and out of trouble, their difficulty in settling down with one leader….”. As for out of trouble – dare one mention Curry for example? All parties have ‘rogues’ as you well know. I also believe it rather disingenious to talk about settling down with one leader when one only has to look at the anti-Cameron comments on ConHome when any topic that touches the subject of the EU is raised.
You must acknowledge that Cameron’s policy of reclaiming powers, a sovereignty bill and further referendums are totally meaningless. The EU will never agree to repatriation as it would mean a queue of countries, were we to succeed, all wanting power back. You also know that Lisbon is a self-amending treaty so they can do what they like when it comes to assuming more competences.
Until the Conservative party and David Cameron accept that we need out from the political aspect and then membership of say EFTA, Ukip will continue to take votes from your party. It is not just the Conservative party that Ukip are fighting, John, as you well know.
Another important aspect is the need to elect MPs who will put party before country and there seems a paucity of that type on offer. The whipped system of politics must be stopped and stopped immediately. On this point the Albion Alliance – http://albionalliance.org.uk/ – is trying to do just that and it is an important step in the cleansing of Parliament.
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Here we have it. Won’t join Ukip because political career comes before principle. Mr. Redwood knows Ukip is a useless party.
Reply: Quite false. We cannot sort out the EU mess if we remain divided and keep losing.
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Collis Gretton Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
The EU may not be “perfect” but its no mess.
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Steve Tierney Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:00 pm
You are joking, surely?
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Robert Eve Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:45 pm
I would say total mess.
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Collis Gretton Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Is that why David Cameron said He will not hold a referendum on withdrawal? Our leader believes in British memberhip. Said so on the Andrew Marr programme today.
The Conservative Party took us in and will never take us out. Why is that I wonder. It’s because we benefit from “the total mess.”
I dearly wish to able to vote Conservative as I always have done, however it appears not to be.
Without a referendum on our country’s future direction in relation to Europe and the EU the Conservatives will be without negotiating leverage and will achieve nothing.
They also are unwilling to make the case that the EU affects almost everything we do as individuals, organisations, companies and councils etc… If they continue failing to make this case many people will not understand it’s importance to the areas of life they are immediately concerned about.
The Conservatives can get the majority they need from the popular support a referendum supported by people from all sides can deliver.
I want to vote for your party – make it easier by giving the majority what we want – A referendum on our future
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“Why have so many strong Eurosceptics joined or remained within the Conservative party? Our thinking is as follows. A re-elected Labour government would carry on the sell out. They after all have given more power away in 12 years than all previous governments over a much longer time period. They signed Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon. So it is most important to stop Labour winning.”
Indeed I agree 100% with you, as I very often do. I am one of those Eurosceptics that has rejoined the party recently, because I honestly believe the party is getting over its damaging falling out over the E.U.
We are not the party in power right now and of course D.C. has not been in a position to offer us a referendum on Lisbon. That’s a fact, those who blame David has been confused by the press often as not, or by UKIP, who frankly are a pressure group not a political party.
“Will David Cameron and William Hague give strong Eurosceptics everything they want? No, because they do not wish to undertake unilateral withdrawal from the whole thing. The best we can hope for is some reversal of direction, after years of a strong flow of powers to Brussels from the UK. If we do not take this opportunity to have a Eurosceptic majority in the Commons to represent the Eurosceptic majority in the country, we should expect more of the same that has so saddened some and maddened others over the last decade. We need even more Eurosceptics within the Conservative party, to press from within for a strong renegotiation of powers, and for a clear and effective reassertion of British sovereignty through UK legislation.”
QFT. The right way to go about getting some of our powers back, is by joining the party supporting our leadership, and by lobbying from within for the changes we want and in fact need. Of course the National interest must come first , so I do not imagine there will be an In/Out referendum, as frankly that would undermine further our damaged but recoverable economy.
As always John is talking sense, and those many who know this to be true should be out and about spreading the Right Thinking . We have just one chance to stop the slide into being a satellite state within the New Roman Empire. There are very many good things about the E.U. but it was supposed to be a trading block not an Empire by the back door. Renegotiating the treaty of Rome isn’t a simple thing, it will require a strong legal case to be built. This is something that strong-euro sceptic lawyers, might like to look into. Please stop blaming David, its not his fault, indeed those of us who split the party are very much more to blame for the Nu-labour years and the whole mess we find ourselves in. Conservatives must work together for the greater good of the whole nation, that must is crystal clear to me.
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Sorry Mr Redwood not good enough! The grass roots my put the EU at the top of their agenda but the leadership wants to bury it, and concentrate on other issues, thus ignoring the fact that the EU impacts on those other issues.
All the Conservatives are offering is more of the same, or at the very best a short pause in the ongoing integration. It would seem the Conservative argument is – that it is to late now to do anything about the Lisbon Treaty, but by some magic formula we can negotiate the return of some small powers – of course the truth is that the return of those small powers would also require not only a new treaty but demand a breaking of the “Ratchet” and that is something which a has never happened, because it is EU law that once a power has been passed to the EU it cannot be returned to the member state.
My MP is Conservative, he is a good MP he is an EUsceptic MP, I wish him well but will not give him my vote because his leadership is only pretending to be EUsceptic and if they manage to win the next election will not do anything meaningful about the mess of our membership of this totally discredited Union.
UKIP may not win a seat in the next parliament but each vote for them is a vote for a totally different arrangement with the EU a vote against the cosy Westminster cabal that denies the people of this country a voice in their own constitution, a vote for them could well deny Mr Cameron a majority in a parliament that continually passes control of our government to the EU. Hence it is not a wasted vote but a warning that we the people of this country want our country back.
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“Will David Cameron and William Hague give strong Eurosceptics everything they want? No, because they do not wish to undertake unilateral withdrawal from the whole thing”
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Well, they are entitled to their opinions. But so are the rest of the British people and we have not, and it seems, will not, be given the opportunity to express our opinion on the EU in case we vote against the wishes of our leaders and potential leaders.
In other words, Cameron and Hague are just like Brown and Mandelson. No Referendum because they may not like the result!
We should have a Referendum, and if Cameron and Hague and whoever is leading Labour want to campaign pursuade us that we should stay in the EU, that’s ok (as long as funding is given equally to the IN and OUT camp). But WE should get to decide and THEY should live with OUR decision. That’s democracy.
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Keep on holding tight to nurse? Yes, there are arguments for that, but it would be another triumph of hope over experience. There is nothing I would like better than to vote for a Conservative Party I could trust on Europe, but the truth seems to be that if the membership are really eurosceptic they are prepared to get behind a leadership which is much less so (Ken Clarke anyone) and to allow that leadership to have its way, so long as it delivers an election victory.
Unless something changes I will have to withhold support.
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Why is the party leadership so afraid of withdrawal from Europe,is Britain that enfeebled that it cannot stand alone?I too voted no in the seventies referendum and have voted tory for over 40 years,but what strength has Cameron to renegotiate the return of powers,none it would seem.We would need the agreement of all the other member states and the likelihood of that is zero.It’s all very well saying the membership is mainly eurosceptic but the leadership isn’t and like Brown are stubborn.The majority of the British people want A full blown referendum on Europe,they want firm commitments on immigration and the economy and until the party gives us these my vote goes to UKIP who even now are listing a petition for a referendum.
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You wrote that:
“Will David Cameron and William Hague give strong Eurosceptics everything they want? No, because they do not wish to undertake unilateral withdrawal from the whole thing.”
That’s really the basic problem, isn’t it? If a referendum was held on the simple issue of leaving or staying in the EU, it seems quite possible to me (though certainly nor a foregone conclusion) that a majority of the British electorate would vote to leave. So what right do Messrs Cameron and Hague have to deny our people the opportunity to make that choice?
I’m afraid that this approach by the Conservative leadership smacks of the ‘we know better than you’ approach to politics that has been the dreadful hallmark of the last decade of ruinous Socialism. I doubt that I am alone in scratching my head and wondering what it is exactly that Messrs Hague and Cameron aren’t telling us? Why not give us a genuine choice, instead of wasting everyone’s time messing about in the margins of the EU problem hoping to achieve ‘ some reversal of direction’?
I’m sorry, John, but I simply don’t understand this refusal to let the electorate speak. Many people will see little difference between the three main parties in this area if Messrs Hague and Cameron continue with the same line.
Personally, I see Lisbon as a done deal now, and think that fixing the economy and sorting out the fiscal mess left by Incontinence Brown are the top priorities, so I shall almost certainly vote Conservative. I am sure that many people (like those at the dinner you mention) will feel differently to me, and will look closely at what the various parties are offering as a solution to Brussels.
The Conservative leadership still have time to put some clear blue water between themselves and the Limp-Dems and Socialists. A referendum on the stay in or leave issue is simply honouring the democratic process, it’s not as if Messrs Cameron and Hague could be accused of encouraging people to vote to leave the EU, with all the dramatic implications that could have for the UK’s economy. So give us a referendum, let them even share a podium with Kenneth Clarke, Gordon Brown and Nick Clegg to try and convince voters to stay in the EU. But for goodness sake, please let people have their say.
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I’m a supporter of the present arrangements with the EU, and therefore I am hoping that your wish to leave the EU will be frustrated. One reason why I am worried about voting Conservative at the next election is the fear that after the election those whose support what I see as more “Europhobic” policies will gain power from Mr Cameron, or force him into situations where he is forced to exhibit greater hostility to the EU than he already does (which is already a bit too much for me). Mr Cameron might gain some votes from potential UKIP supporters if he becomes more Eurosceptic, but he would lose votes like mine – and contrary to what most repliers to your blog seem to think, there are a reasonable number of people who think like me. We are not present at Conservative Association dinners, but we are present at polling stations.
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Steve Tierney Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I don’t know many like you, Alan. I respect your right to take the view that you do, but its not a view I hear that often in real life.
I know that the Conservative Party is a broad church and I accept some fairly wide-ranging opinion from my friends and colleagues for exactly that reason.
But in regards to the EU I can’t see what is conservative about it. We are against Big Government. Government doesn’t get much bigger than the EU. The whole project is fundamentally un-conservative.
Notice this weekends polling has us back at 6% lead? Could be a rogue poll. Let’s hope it is. But isn’t it strange that we’ve had that massive lead for so long and then the Lisbon announcement happens and now this?
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Andy Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I agree with Steve. I do not hear many pro-European views. What I hear are Euroseptic views, and indeed many many who do not wish to be part of the wretched EU.
The EU is firmly anti-democratic and has been built by the political elite no matter what the people want or think. The political elite think it is cementing peace within Europe where they are actually sowing the seeds of war.
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I think Mr Cameron would have been better of declaring in advance that he wouldn’t call a referendum if Lisbon was ratified – a decision that I think was the only viable one.
UKIP can at best get one seat, possibly the speakers, so they aren’t in a position to wield any power.
My concern is twofold, firstly that UKIP draw enough votes from disaffected Conservative voters and leads to fewer Conservative seats.
Secondly under the intense scrutiny that goes with an election campaign Ken Clarke makes a big Euro gaffe that the media will leap on.
I think Mr Cameron took a big risk when he invited him into the shadow cabinet.
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Alternatively, people with actual power to do something about this, like say 100 tory MP’s in seats Mr Cameron depends on, could go and see him and say ‘referendum’ or we are off to UKIP.
Or they could meekly accept the sell-out…
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Cameron and Hague are in the process of losing the election. This is the issue of our time or perhaps the real issue of our time is the end of democracy in our country. The political party system has been abused to the point were 40% plus do not vote and manifesto pledges are “unreliable”. The will of the people has been subverted to the survival of the party. I prefer to believe in Father Christmas than Cameron and Hague achieving anything meaningful in Brussels e.g. end of CAP.
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Stuart Fairney Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:03 am
This is very well observed ~ we are now more or less in a post-democratic era. When the two and a half major parties in the country all say “referendum” because they know they are unelectable without such a pledge, but then run away from it, where can a democrat go?
Combine that with the Quangocracy dominating so many aspects of our lives and the obscene joke of appointed Presidents (what ever Hague calls them), failed EU policies, the lack of accountability and the accounts that never pass audit. The last item is the worst ~ would you ever invest in a company whose auditors did not pass the accounts? (indeed wouldn’t the directors be subject to arrest?). Yet we are compelled to invest in the EU via our taxes siezed on pain of arrest.
Post democracy indeed.
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An excellently argued piece, Mr Redwood.
It is entirely discounted by the intellectually challeged but loses nothing by their failure to understand your arguments.
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My understanding is that the UKIP offer to ‘not contest a seat fought by a “Better Off Out” signatory’ still stands, also that the new intake of PPCs are highly Eurosceptic.
So, why do the Tories not allow their top 100 marginals to sign “BOO”?
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The greatest fraud is a promise unfullfilled.
I will not vote for any of the main 3 parties – I want to see their stranglehold on power broken.
Don’t be afraid to go out on a limb, that’s where the fruit is.
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I have always been a Tory voter, but at the last General Election I supported UKIP. As long as we stay in the EU, it seems to me that it doesn’t matter whether Labour or the Tories are in power, something like 75% or more of our legislation comes from Europe and they generally interfere in the rest.
We’ve heard in the past about restricting the EU power to interfere, but its never happened, and I suspect that I’m not the only cynic who believes most politicians want to stay in the EU because of the highly paid, tax-free jobs that they might manage to acquire. After all, every additional layer of government, including all these non-elected regional councils, provide more jobs for politicians, so providing employment for all these graduates do with degrees in subjects like Political Science.
Sorry, it’ll take a lot more than vague promises to get me back to the Tories.
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If you were standing in my constituency, or indeed some Conservative who credibly undertakes to support a referendum I would certainly viote for them. However UKIP are under no duty to be helpful to the Conservatives or anybody else. In theory they should wish to support the LibDems hoping for a hung Conservative?LD majority because the LDs have promised a referendum but since they broke their last promise to support one that would be unwise.
Tactically I would suggest that, in their own interests, UKIP should offer a voting pact on PR to the LDs & BNP & when the LDs refuse stand in LD, some Labour & some particularly Europhile Tory seats but particularly LD ones. Their practical objective should be to crack the LD vote (which they have magnificently done in the European election). I think most LD voters, unlike their leaders, are eurosceptic, free market, pro-PR & dubious on catastrophic warming & nowadays probably even anti-windmillery & the LDs would be very vulnerable. Fewer LD seats obviously reduce the chance of a hung Parliament & are thus in the Conservative interest & having opposition on the right as well as the left is of great long term value but the Conservative interest should not be a UKIP criteria.
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So, Mr Redwood, better under the benign dictatorship of the Conservatives than the more abrasive dictatorship of Labour?
If the issue is a supra-totalitarian regime with national governments acting as vassals required and it seems willing to impose the dictates from above on their own people, how is the principle of freedom and liberty served by ensuring one of these vassals is in government rather than the other?
The only alternative to bloody revolt by the population against those who govern, is a proper democratic process.
Perhaps better to have another 12 years of Labour and its Euro-friendliness so finally the population snaps and does soemthing about it.
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As usual, a well reasoned and thoughtful blog. Eurosceptic readers however do have a dilemma. We are affronted by the denial of any real say in what happens over the EU and politicians have disgracefully given away powers which were not theirs to give away without the consent of the people. The Conservative party is the only party capable of displacing Labour at the general election but it too is wedded to membership of the EU. Even today Cameron made it clear that he doesn’t want a referendum on EU membership because he wants to stay in and by implication he made clear that he doesn’t want the people to decide because they will probably vote to leave. His comment also surrenders any bargaining strength he may have within the EU, as he is not willing to utilise the ultimate sanction when they refuse to accede to any requests to repatriate powers. The dilemma then is to acquiesce in the continual removal of our democracy or to vote for a party which will do something about it (UKIP) but has no immediate hope of achieving power. Once our democracy has been totally eroded we shan’t have the chance to even vote for a party such as UKIP. Many politicians talk about democracy but when they do it is usually in connection with its introduction in some foreign country. When it comes to our own country, where these politicians have been entrusted with our democratic rights, they treat them with disdain and often cast them away. Ultimately, there will be a United States of Europe. This has been continually denied but as each year goes by it becomes nearer to reality. If politicians have to lie to get their own way against the wishes of their own people what does that tell us of the merits of their aim? The next six months will be a time for reflection on the dilemma we face and the outcome cannot be taken for granted.
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A lovely summary of clear thinking which I would love to hear repeated in wider media, too. A vote for UKIP (or BNP) is a vote for Labour.
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Mr Redwood says he has fought the treaties but he has unfortunately been unsuccessful. After so many decades of patiently expecting the Conservatives to hold the line on Europe, and after the ratification of Lisbon, our patience with the Conservatives is surely exhausted. One can only wait for so long. The Tories are, de facto, a pro-EU party despite protestations to the contrary. Conservatives who stay in the party hoping it can one day get us out of the union will wait for ever. Their Eurosceptic voices are being muffled because of misplaced loyalty. If reasonable Conservative Eurosceptics left the party, the political right in Britain would look and behave in a less eccentric way. As it is, good people are being held back by Europhiles who say they have their reservations about the EU but who just let Britain become sucked further and further into its federalising maw. The alternative, of course, would be for the Europhiles in the Conservative party to leave for the Liberals. The Tories could then go to the country with a policy of withdrawal from the union which could win them the election.
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This argument will no longer wash. Just as New Labour is the midwife of the modern BNP, so are the Conservatives the midwife of UKIP: if the Conservatives’ policies on the EU reflected the will of their core vote, there would have been no need for UKIP in the first place. (Although he CP must have been delighted by the Electoral Commission stitch-up).
I agree that UKIP will probably not gain a single seat in the GE, but unlike, David Cameron, the shadow cabinet and most Conservative MPs, comes a time you have to put country before party, regardless. Which is why Conservatives like me will continue to vote UKIP until our country is free. Once Cameron found he could not offer a referendum on Lisbon, had he instead offered an In-or-Out plebiscite in its place, I’d be back in the fold in a trice (along with all other UKIP voters, I’m sure).
While I accept your reasons for being an MP, I can’t help feeling that if you and certain other Conservative MPs felt you could win your seat on a UKIP ticket, you would defect tomorrow. Look yourself in the eye in front of the shaving mirror tomorrow morning and tell yourself this is not the case.
Besides, how could anyone possibly vote for a party led by a man who uses the sacrifices of our troops for a self-serving photo op? He should apologise, not to Westminster Abbey, but to them and their families. Disgraceful.
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Andy Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Mike, if you really want to get the UK out of the EU voting UKIP is the surest way to achieve the exact opposite. In my own constituency it was the votes for UKIP which cost the sitting Conservative MP his seat in 1997.
Every vote for UKIP is basically a vote for Labour. If you want Eurosceptics then vote Tory. The intake of new MPs next year will be profoundly Eurosceptic. The more the better.
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bad schools yes to that one
the terrible non education those on the worst estates and inner cities suffer, while hypocritical politicians make sure their own kids go elsewhere, have got to be radically changed
its as much a national emergency as anything else, for if we dont fix this quickly it doesnt matter what happens on the economic front the country will not be able to sustain itself with such poorly educated people
needs real radical reinvent the rules action, of a decisive change the rules of the game totally kind
im not sure ive seen that from any party?
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I agree that the British people wish to remain in Europe but not in the European Union with all its bureaucratic horrors of lack of democracy, failed politicians (now literally Lording it over us), inability to sign off its accounts and a European “Iron Curtain”. We should stop making any contributions at all until they can audit their accounts. We want to be in Europe but not controlled by them.
There is nothing to stop a Referendum from asking;
“If we had been given the Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty promised to the British People would you vote YES or NO.
That would give a huge mandate to a new Government and something to wave at the negotiating table when sitting down with the rest.
On another matter I think that the UK does not properly translate the meaning of the word President. In the UK it has far greater powers than to the French as it is simply a Chairman.
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Fernando Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Bernard, not a huge mandate if the Labour and LibDems told their supporter to boycott the poll. I can imagine the treaty being overwhelmingly rejected but with less than 20% of the electorate voting. As the treaty is already in force, most people would see the exercise as a waste of time and money. Anyhow, we would be left in exactly the same position as now: reliant on Cameron and Hague to chip away, exploiting the opportunities when they arrive and accumulating the changes gradually.
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JR I repsect you and what you say but I have waited since the mid 1960’s to have a meaningful vote on this issue and always voted Tory, except in 1973, in the belief that they were the only hope of putting right the wrongs of the traitor Edward Heath, nothing changes.
In the next General Election and future ones I will not vote until I get a guarantee that a free and fair vote will be held on this issue. I am a core Tory voter, not a floater, so if others do the same, much as I want to see the current lot out, it won’t happen and David Camerom should be told.
Sooner or later there will be a vote in this country, that is a fact!
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David H Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Would that be a “cast-iron guarantee” you wanted, or a manifesto promise?
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pipesmoker Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:46 am
In 1997 my local Conservative MP gave me an honest handwritten assurance, in reply to a letter, of his position on membership of the European Union. That was good enough for me and had he not lost his seat I would still be voting for him. I would not have to ask JR and were he my MP I would turn out and support him.
It took me around three years to extract a response from Janet Dean (Labour), the current MP, she is of course very pro EU.
I am still angry about the way Heath took us into the Common Market and others since have used every device to get us further into the EC and EU and ratification of the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty..
Parliament will soon be little more than a Shire County Council in a Country called Europe and I am resolutely against it.
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Perhaps the time has come for the Conservatives to offer us the untimnate referendum In or out of the EU.
I am quite happy to trade with any country, but give up our democracy, give up our freedom – unacceptable.
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Fernando Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Those people suggesting we leave and negotiate a trading arrangement are dreaming. The Many of the arguments advanced by the BOO people would not stand up to a scrutiny or are based on wishful thinking. This is why the LibDems flirt with the idea of an in/out referendum. They know it is one the EU supporters would win easily and push euroscepticism off centre stage for a decade. The result would be rolled out every time someone suggested a renegotiation of our arrangements.
Negotiations on trade would be very one sided, with the EU expecting sterling to align itself to the Euro to prevent competitive devaluations. Also, the non EU members of the EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) have had to agree to enact legislation similar to that passed in the EU in the areas of social policy, consumer protection, environment, company law and statistics. So they have to accept the red tape but have no influence over formulating policy. We could end up even more powerless than now.
I want a more flexible, decentralised EU. We can only fight for this from within the EU, in the manner outlined by Cameron.
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Dr Bernard Juby Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:28 am
How is it then that e.g. France and Germany can decide which parts of the Aquis communitaire they are going to abide by and the rest can’t?
Surely we could “do a Germany” by giving our courts over-riding powers over the place-men in the ECHR?
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Stuart Fairney Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 9:30 am
With respect your argument seems curiously self-destructive. You suggest we could achieve nothing be negotiation from a standpoint of fundamental re-alignment, (counsel of despair if I ever heard it incidentally) and yet we should stay in and seek reform by means of, (I guess) negotiation without the threat of withdrawl or sanction if the EU does not agree.
If negotiating from strength won’t in your view succeed, how can negotiating from recumbent impotence be any more successful?
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Fernando Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Stuart, I was busy yesterday and could not reply to your comment. I applaud your patriotism but you will not be surprised to hear that I disagree with you. I am old enough to have voted to leave the EU in the 1975 referendum. I felt at that time that we could build on EFTA and some of the Commonwealth countries to create our own trading bloc. In some ways I still think that this was a lost opportunity as such a bloc with strong transatlantic links would have been more attractive than the EU to many east European countries after the fall of Communism.
However, we stayed a member and the EU has moved on apace since then, notably with the single market championed by Margaret Thatcher. A colossus, with 30% of world trade, has been created which will impact us profoundly whether we are in or out. The company I have helped to grow over nearly forty years now has marketing outlets in most EU countries and toll manufacturing arrangements with companies throughout the union. Our economic future is bound up with the EU.
I think the threat to leave is hollow. There is no point in a threat unless you are willing to carry it out. I lived through the 1975 referendum and I don’t believe that you can convince a fearful electorate to leave; persuade them that the undoubted short-term disruption will be worth it in the long term. Personally, I would prefer the current, imperfect relationship rather than our being outside the EU.
Part of the reason I don’t think you can convince the electorate goes to the heart of why I think the BOO case is weak. It rests on the assumption that we can jettison all the aspects of the EU which we dislike and yet still have untrammelled access to their markets. This is a leap of faith that I find totally unconvincing. Of course they will want to trade with us but on what terms. The negotiations will not be between equal parties. Well over half of our trade is with them and only 5-10% of their trade is with us. Bluntly, we need them more than they need us. Putting aside the likelihood that they will probably not want to encourage secession by granting us favourable terms, the experience of other countries negotiating trading arrangements wit the EU is not encouraging. Norway still has to contribute to EU coffers. Also, the non EU members of the EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) have had to agree to enact legislation similar to that passed in the EU in the areas of social policy, consumer protection, environment, company law and statistics. So they have to accept the red tape but have no influence over formulating policy. Even our opt-out from the euro could be under threat. To prevent competitive devaluations they are likely to insist the pound is aligned to the euro within certain limits.
I’m less pessimistic than you about the prospects of creating a decentralised, more flexible EU. Tides turn. EU enlargement will mean some of the arrangements need revision. The accession of the new members in the east creates potential allies. On one point I am certain: the EU will have a big impact on us in the future and we are better off being able to influence decisions rather than being ( I use your phrase) recumbently impotent outside.
What is really amazing is that the conservatives actually have to worry about UKIP. After more than a decade of the most incompetant, corrupt, useless, undemocratic idiots ever experienced in this country why is labour still a force? There seems to have been no concerted campign to highlight all the failings of labour, why not? One open goal after another let unexploited. Brown should be an absolute laughing stock in every pub in the country. But he is still believed and taken seriously by many people. Why are the conservatives not 50%+ in opinion polls? Maybe it’s time for the country to really crash and people believe what they have to to make sure history takes it’s course. That is what will happen if things don’t change in a big way.
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Most people want association with the EU and not absorption within it – yet politicians deliberately conflate the two.
I believe that the politicians know full well what abstensionism is and it most certainly isn’t apathy – it only looks like apathy if it suits you to percieve it that way. My non-vote IS a protest, though I am not allowed to register a “none of the above” on my voting slip (how I would love to be able to). The politicians are happy to work with a down-sized electorate fighting over a so-called ‘middle ground’ which is, in fact, way to the left of the political spectrum – the political elite exists for the sake of the political elite and not for the people.
Tories will draw us closer to Europe too. Mr Cameron has reneged on his promise of a referendum and he hasn’t even made office yet – let’s hope he never does.
The only way I can see me getting a party that I WANT to vote for is if the Conservatives lose the next election. Then they might just get the message.
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SJB Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
You can register your protest by writing “none of the above” on your ballot paper.
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We all loathe the way that our democratic history has been betrayed first by the (Conservative) Mr Heath then, all along the line (except Mrs Thatcher) up to the present New Labour Project.
I personally am frightened by the way that we are losing our cutting edge in banking especially, but also in farming and fisheries. We see our country carved up into Celtic/English fiefdoms. And the rest. Why should Frankfurt or Paris help their rivals?
Further to which, we know that politicians, the more senior the better, love having dinner together and being popular with each other at the expense of the people they represent. More sell outs? Can Mr Cameron be a Eurosceptic PM in Brussels? Over the Sea Bass?
Even so, we are being asked for a final go at saving our country from the current European crisis (Napoleon, the Kaiser, Louis XIV, Felipe II).
We are smarting from the lies, incompetence and fudge of New Labour over several years when, three times we were fooled into electing them.
Nevertheless, “Into the breach, dear Friends once more!”
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It’s the vote as the ‘least worst option’ thing again. Labour are dire, and a latent totalitarians. The current Tory leadership are Europhiles with UK democratic connections and hopefully a small government low tax ambitions. The Libdems – who? UKIP, a one idea party with no electability. So you choose the Tories on the basis that they are the least likely to cock things up and that if you are very Euroscpetic – like me – there is a chance that the leadership will end up being forced to offer us a in/out referendum.
The endgame for the UK is either an in/out refendum or full federalisation into the EU superstate. As someone who loves democracy and freedom I, of course, want out.
The european democratic and rule of law legacy is not the same as ours.
Europe has suffered a lot of poor government and in recent times periods of totalitarianism under both national socialist or oligarchical dictatorships. This has left them with the false idea that the people cannot be trusted with democracy as they may give the ‘wrong’ result (see Ireland) and that only specially trained and uniquely talented elites are capable of delivering reliable governance.
Whereas the UK, starting in 1215, and via various disagreements and internal disputes, not the least of which was a civil war, has developed and maintained a democratic system supported by the rule of law that was designed to support individual freedom. It is no coincidence that this strong democracy survived the 20th century against the flow of European totalitarianism and war. We have had a few good laws that we, the people thought sensible, and we obeyed them. We have become a very law abiding people. We now suffer a profliferation of silly ‘rules’ that masquerade as ‘laws’ emanating from the EU, which, given our history, we still obey. It drives most of us mad.
Given this situation a majority want out. We want the free trade arrangement we were told we were getting. Not the theft of our sovereignty and our freedom by a largely undemocratically accountable elite grown from roots that do not resonate with our democratic experience.
New Labour has tried to erode these differences, not because it is at all the right thing to do for the people, but because New Labour policies and agenda need the shelter of the EU to maintain itself in power. Once it has been found out, unless it can devolve our Sovereignty to an undemocratic unaccountable super state, it will never get elected again. As Ayn Rand said so prohpetically ’socialism always trends to totalitarianism’.
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SJB Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:06 pm
“It is no coincidence that this strong democracy survived the 20th century against the flow of European totalitarianism and war.”
I think the English Channel had more to do with saving us from Nazi occupation, Lola.
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Lola Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 am
Ho! Ho! ‘Fog in channel, Continent cut off’? Perhaps, well, no, definitely.
You can argue about the causes for Hitler’s failure to follow up on Dunkirk; German General Staff unable to think maritime, Hitler’s strategic failure and thoughts on negotiation plus the planned Barbarrosa operation for which he needed troops, Goerings offer that he could bomb us into surrender with flawed tactics, and so on. But fundamentally the UK democratic system survived fierce internal debate and terrifying external threats and provided a generally unanimous effort to defeat tyranny. Churchill, despite his near dictatorship powers still supported democracy and went to the House twice a week (unlike that clown Blair who only went once a week) for PM’s QT. He also appointed and listened to good advisers, especially his military advisers.
Now, just because there’s a Tunnel some would have us think that we are ‘part of Europe’. Nope, sorry sunshine, but nope. The view from this end of the Tunnel is that all it means is that we can trade more easily with you. You can buy our stuff and we can buy your stuff. It does not mean that we can be more ‘connected’ with you politically.
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Your argument appears to be that you would rather take a compromise view with a party which has a 5/4 chance of winning power than joining a party with a 100/1 chance of winning power when the latter party neverthless more closely represents your views. Or if you aren’t expressing this view for yourself, then you are asking others to follow this line.
I put it you that this line of thinking will lead to a self-fulfilling stagnation of our democracy, in which new ideas and parties will always be “shouted down” because they are new/marginal/should never take majority power away from the pre-existing 2 major parties.
A large number of people are coming to see that this is unacceptable- that just backing the same old 2 party system on whichever side will lead to further stagnation of our democracy and that embracing a reasonable third, fourth or fifth way of looking at things (which isn’t really offered by the LibDems) is preferable to a lurch into non-democratic means of expressing needs for things which neither Labour nor the Tories seem to be able to deliver en masse, viz a referendum, straightforwardness and truth when answering questions, integrity in being responsible for one’s rewards in doing their job.
Whilst I and other readers of this blog would count you among the Tory MP s who have loyalty, truth, integrity and straightforwardness in your dealings, we all know that there are both “bad apples” and Members who are, let’s say, more bound to PR and expediency than with consistency and straightforwardness in their dealings. So there comes a time when you need to ask whether you should continue to be loyal to a leadership which is not being loyal to it’s promises, and to a bunch of MPs which are on a lower level of integrity and straightforwardness to yourself.
It is for these reasons that many of your formerly Conservative constituents will note vote Tory next year. These are the reasons why you should have the “Courage of your Convictions”, rather than the “Convenience of Compromise”…..
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Kevin Peat Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:03 pm
A little longer than it needed to be but well said nonetheless.
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I have voted Conservative ever since 1970,(21 in’67).I am a working class toolroom worker,publican for the best part of 20yrs,disabled for the past 10yrs,also a member for quite a while until, Cameron took over,then I left,disgusted at a snake-oil salesman the same as Blair.I am now an organiser for the British National Party,hoping to stand in the General Election to push the sitting Labour MP out,but if the local Tory candidate wins,well he is no better than the Labour chap.The constituency-Ipswich.
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Lola Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
That’s interesting that you are a BNP member campaiging against the Labour incumbent. It rather reinforces my view that the BNP manifesto is closer to Labour’s than the Tories. (It’s also very close to the Green’s). Hence the BNP should be better categorised as a ‘far left’ party than as a ‘far right’ one.
As a point of information I am disenfranchised in Ipswich. I run and am taxed on a business based in Ipswich, but I have no vote on who represent Ipswich since I live in a Suffolk constituency outside the Town.
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Part of the problem is the system that we are expected to use to elect a candidate.
We asked to vote for both a person and a party that we support, over an ocean of issues. As a result, those who bother to think about what they really want from Government are always going to be compromising some of what would ideally be asked for.
However, some compromises are more acceptable than others. Giving up the referundum that many of us hoped for on Europe is one of the more bitter pills to have to swallow. It may even negate the economic benefits we would hope to gain from a Conservative government, if the unaccountable EU starts to throw its considerable weight around.
In my case, I’m not fond of the local sitting MP; a Conservative who I fully expect to be re-elected, even without my vote. So even if I was inclined to vote for the party, I would have to swallow hard before putting my cross next to the name of the individual.
As such, whether I vote for UKIP or fail to vote at all, the best I can hope for is that adding my voice to blogs such as these will bring the issue to the notice of somebody high enough up the scale to make a difference.
I have faith in our honourable host, but not in those who lead the Conservative party.
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There is nothing wrong with the conservative position on Lisbon. We opposed it and would have had a referendum – but its been passed and we have a new wonderful EU President in place, all before the election.
Whinging about what ineffectual things we might do after an election we have not won yet is just typical of the UKIP inclined pea brained loony tunes.
Cameron and the official Tory position thinks the EU can be good for Britain but wants it run properly and wants powers repatriated. its a respectable position – especially before an election – where the great majority of voters have other issues on their minds.
The issue becomes active assuming the EU continues to behave badly and does not repatriate powers. We can minimise the EU effects if we want to by being bloody minded, but in the end if things continue apace, we will have an in/out referendum – sometime after the election after next.
UKIP is indeed just an English nationalist party by another name.
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James Matthews Reply:
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:42 pm
So UKIP are Loony Tunes and English Nationalists. I rather wish they were the latter, but presumably you regard both as insults.
Insults though, don’t address the problem, which is that there is absolutely no reason to believe that your suggestion of an in/out referendum would ever come to pass. Cameron has ruled it out for the next parliament, thus giving away 95% of his negotiating position on repatriation of powers. Will he, or the Conservative party, grow a spine by the time of the election after next? Well I suppose they might, but there is no sign of it so far and even if they do, who says they will win two terms?
Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but never jam today. We have heard it all before and fewer and fewer of us believe it
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TrevorsDen Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Dear James
I would like to be out of the EU but there are believe it or not other fish to fry meantime and getting bogged down with the EU is not going to hepl anybody – and the majority of the voters will be easily persuaded by that line by labour if we give them a chance.
Our relationship with the EU will take its natural course – assuming that the sceptics use their brains.
One very big fish to fry of course is getting elected in the first place – then we will have the luxury of worrying how to deal with the EU at our leisure.
There are precisely no votes for UKIP in NI, Wales or Scotland.
UKIP have one USP – they can ensure the re-election of Gordon Brown.
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James Matthews Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Bigger fish than our freedom to govern ourselves? I beg to differ.
There aren’t that many votes for the Tories in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland either, but that does not make the Conservatives English Nationalist (more’s the pity in my view) despite the claims of their opponents. UKIP with limited, but not zero, support outside England, remains determindly a UK party, just like the Conservatives.
TrevorsDen Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Dear James
My big fish is getting a Tory govt elected.
I would be happy to see us out of or have a more distant relationship with the EU. No problems.
But the notion that we can ignore the EU and can blissfully run our affairs in sweet isolation is baloney – as is the notion that we cannot govern ourselves if we want to.
We can do what we want – we are not in the Euro – and the EU will struggle to stop us.
Right now our bureaucrats are simply using the EU to aggrandise power and their prejudices. Cameron wants a more distant relationship, he/the Tories want to repatriate powers. Lets judge him on that.
But we face a bigger danger from our own bureaucrats and solving that would get my priority.
But James – you give the game away saying you are an English nationalist. If Scotland want independence then thats their problem (they will never vote that way of course which is why Salmond constantly niggles the English) – England will survive, but I am British and want to continue to be British. The Scots are nice people – I go there quite a bit, its sad that labour have ruined the country. But for me ‘Britain is Great’
“When you add in UKIP’s difficulty in keeping MEPs in their party and out of trouble, their difficulty in settling down with one leader and it is difficult to see why any true Eurosceptic would think they are our salavation.”
We kick MEPs out of our party when they misbehave, the Tories try to hide it. More Tory MEPs are accused of far worse things than Wise and Mote, but has Cameron withdrawn the whip? Of course not.
UKIP are standing against Labour candidates all over the place, but we are not qoing to roll over for fair weather Europsceptic Tories who have no clout with Cameron.
(Unpleasant and inaccurate words re Conservatives deleted)
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“A vote for UKIP (or BNP) is a vote for Labour.”
If that is true, the Conservative leadership know what they must to do get those votes back. It is extremely simple, and the fact that they won’t can only mean that they don’t want to. I loathe socialism but I shall still vote for UKIP; it is the only way I know of protesting.
(As for staying with the Conservatives to “work for change from within” – where have we heard that before?)
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I have had a publicised spat at the Conservative Party in the past couple of weeks. I thought very deeply about leaving the Conservative Party, but I have decided to stay for the reasons you have stated in this post. Us Eurosceptics are in this for the long haul. I believe we will get there in the end though.
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You know I’m beginning to think of voting UKIP in the marginal seat I live in (Labour majority 1,000-2,000) I quite like the Tory candidate but if my vote costs them the seat so be it. I have over the years voted Conservative in every election since February 74 and have held ward and constituency office as well as having stood as a paper candidate in two or three wards. I would behave differently were you my MP. You would have my fullest support. But even so I still want my Party back.
Thinking about it the ideal result would be 290 Conservatives MPs and 50 UKIP MPs
One thing I know about history is that on losing an election in the present day, the Conservative Party Leader stands down (except of course in the case of that Quisling, Ted Heath). That being the case I think there is merit in helping a defeat and that being the case we can get a leader of our Party and not the Party -I would look to Haltemprice and Howden les duex eglises myself
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TrevorsDen Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
The Conservative party is my Party as well.
You really are incredibly arrogant and stupid. Go ahead (take advantage of my rudeness) vote UKIP, but do not come crying to me if we still have a labour govt. Of course its me and people like me you rely on to stop that happening, whilst you go on and feed and vent your prejudice.
Suppose we had a 2 party system as in the USA? Both Labour and Tories would be different, even bigger, coalitions. How would you cope with that?
Democracy is not about everybody else doing what you want (unless your name is Gordon Brown of course). What don’t you want to happen? If its the re-election of Brown Labour and more EU sycophancy then, wel … you choice is clear.
I am not a member of the Tory party, but that is open to us all if we want more direct influence.
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If David Cameron doesn’t let the British people state their opinion by voting on the Lisbon Treaty (assuming DC wins the coming General Election and that public opinion is against the Treaty), he will have nothing to bargain with if he tries to negotiate the return of powers to the UK from the EU beaurocracy.
I don’t believe DC has the fire in his belly to embark on that course. As a previous contributor has stated, the Conservatives election to government will just allow a short pause in the EU jugganaughts progress.
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Is it possible to have reversal?
When you try and vote against the EU in referendums they just ask you to vote again because they say everyone must adopt everything together.
Difficult to see how reversal would be possible, what if they call your bluff and say no reversal, either in or out.
The two options are either to change the consensus opinion in the established party, or to support a new party that represents the counter culture. UK Libertarian Party would seem the best candidate.
Either way however, it requires a political change in society that only the internet can bring about.
Therefore its very important to fight any legislation that could potentially allow regulation of political content on the internet.
The best thing eurosceptics can do is to make full use of the new information technology to spread important information.
Eurosceptics groups (like Bruges) could make better use of it than they do. Long text reports are not the best way of spreading research to an internet generation.
As usual America lead the way
Mises.org is a model example of how it can be done.
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The problem is though Mr Redwood that we cannot trust Cameron and Hague any more than we can trust Brown and Clegg on Europe. They have grossly misled us and are patently intending yet another quisling capitulation to Federalism as soon as they have their hands on the levers of power.
UKIP are right to target the Tories since only the Tories can stop the fedarist plot but the Cameroons, Blue Labour in all but name, must be forced into doing so by seeing that their much desired parliamentary majority is contingent on delivering Euroscepticism.
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I very much hope that the Conservatives will win a resounding victory at the next G.E.
This is because they would only do so by positively attracting votes by their policies. Simply being less bad than the present shower does not deserve victory.
On just about anything else that my little vote every few years has an influence on, I trust the Conservatives to deliver the goods (particularly on the whole gamut of subjects about which I am too unversed to have an opinion on one way or another).
However, on the overriding fundamental of who governs my country then, in practical effect Conservatives are no different from the other two in ceding that privilege to a body that I have not elected and whom the people of this country have not otherwise agreed to hand power to.
Thus I cannot, on present EU policies, vote for any of the three main parties.
The EU keeps being mentioned as low on the average voter’s list of priorities. Are you absolutely sure that it will not play a significant part in voting at the G.E.? Are you prepared to risk being wrong, when it would be so easy to offer a more EUsceptic policy stance?
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John I think you’re spot on with your actions and views.
Mr Cameron’s approach is probably the best course to take; it seems to me futile to have a referendum on a ratified treaty.
I like the idea of enshrining in law that future diminution of powers will have to be subject to a referendum.
I believe that the UK should negotiate firmly for repatriation of powers that seems a better course of action.
The press or politicians rarely point out that we (The UK) do hold at least two key cards
1) We are big financial contributors to the EU
2) We have a big imbalance of trade with the EU, much relies upon exports to the UK
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If you do not vote according to your beliefs, you are giving a democratic mandate to a party system that has, across the board, failed to honour its pledges. You are forfeiting your right to argue for change if you do not vote according to what you believe in, and you will be responsible for the democratic deficit that plagues parliament today.
It is the responsibility of the incumbent parties to decide whether to “tactically” adapt their policies. It is disingenuous of the Mr Redwood to imply that the responsibility of political tactics should reside with the voters. That is not how the democratic system works. Politicians are not our leaders, but our servants. It is their duty to listen to the electorate and present themselves in a way for us to make a free, uninhibited choice.
If the Conservatives plan to give us a referendum on renegotiating our place in Europe, then let them say so. Of course they need to tackle the debt problem and can’t be expected to simultaneously handle an early exit from the EU, but that does not prevent them from making a manifesto commitment to give the people a vote towards the end of the first term. The fact that they do not speaks volumes. If the tories lose 20 marginals because of UKIP that is not the fault of voters, but the fault of the Conservatives. This is meant to be a democracy Mr Redwood. If as you suggest voters should amend their beliefs to try to correct for a fault in the first past the post system, then you are supporting the very democratic deficit that is the cancer in British politics today.
Reply Voters have to understand the consequences of their actions when they vote. They are free to do as they like, but they need to know what might happen when they vote certain ways.
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I see a flaw in your argumentation:
“long march to democratic self government” has NOT reached its destination. Your most severe “democratic deficit” is that smaller parties have no chance in the UK.
That is why a party like UKIP only has a chance in the European Parliament, where it is clearly barking up the wrong tree (these decisions are for Westminster, not for the EU).
You defend the “status quo” (of de-facto 2 parties) and as such prevent better democracy to take hold in Britain, you prevent yourself from being threatened by parties like UKIP or BNP.
If you are serious about democratic self-government you should put “electoral reform” at the top of your list.
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The official Conservative position is to accept what has gone before and sort of try and forestall further changes.
This is a non-party-political version of the “Leftward ratchet” in other sorts of policies. No effort is made to unratchet such changes.
What has gone before is patently the fault of Labour but a general election draws a line under that. I am therefore less interested in attribution of blame for the situation but very interested in what positive action the Tories intend to reverse the position, not merely to cope with status quo.
Awaited with interest but not a great deal of hope.
If Conservative policy on EU is essentially the same as the other main parties then, in the words of the jokey alternative SAS motto:
“Who Cares Who Wins”.
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Thank you John Redwood for a clear and honest exposition of your beliefs and stance with respect to the EU and your view of David Cameron’s and William Hague’s views. I have considerable respect for your consistently straightforward and intelligent analyses as represented on this site. It is clear from the many comments everywhere on the blogosphere that many conservative voters are unhappy with David Cameron’s ‘no referendum’ statement, as also with his rather anodyne intentions to restore some powers back to us. I do understand his difficulty – the treaty is a fact – but I think that, to reclaim those wavering votes, he needs to provide stronger, but realistic, intentions. [As a matter of interest I would like to know just what the legal position is of withdrawing from the EU – not that I THINK this is, necessarily, the best option, but it is the one I instinctively prefer]. Our current relationship with the EU is damaging to this country and it is a matter of some urgency, in my view, that this relationship should be changed.
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We must, in all cases, act lawfully, of course.
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The UK should withdraw from the EU forhwith.
To hell with all the doomsayers who say the country would sink without the EU. What utter rubbish.
Withdrawing from the EU would give the country the shake-up it so badly needs. It is only self interested politicians and businessmen who tell us we would drown without the EU.
It’s time for the UK to free itself from the shackles of this corrupt and expensive club. Let’s stand on our own two feet. The appointment of two non-entities last week tells us all we need to know about this useless institution. It’s too big, too costly and too interfering.
Time to say ciao, adios, adieu…..
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I would like to be reassured by your words, but I have been told that there is no realistic hope of the Conservatives being able to negotiate return of powers to the UK as the system has “ensured” that this cannot happen. If that were true, then the only option is complete withdrawal. I still think that Cameron does not fully comprehend how angry people are re the perceived U turn on the Lisbon Treaty and that he is going to lose so many votes in significant seats. Many people just took his statement at apparent face value and after all the years of spin by this government they are not at all interested in the subtle interpretation of what was actually said – put simply they have had enough and are not prepared to be conciliatory or reasonable. They feel deceived and feel that the Cons. are no better than Labour. I trawl through a lot of websites and comments and this feeling is very widespread, alongside huge concerns re immigration. One hears that those at Cons. HQ are concerned and genuinely puzzled why the voters don’t take more to Cameron – to me it is obvious. It is not the fact that they don’t “take to” Cameron – the real point is that they don’t take to his particular policies on issues which are key to voters i.e. the apparent betrayal on Lisbon and the lack of decisiveness on cutting immigration dramatically.
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