Dec 11 2008
Confirmation that there is no shred of democracy in the EU
The outrageous decision to make the Irish vote again shows the EU is thoroughly anti democratic. The Irish voted No, and that should be that. I hope the Irish vote it down even more heavily next time.
It also appears that there are changes to the Treaty, over the number of Commissioners. This means it should be put again to the people and Parliaments of the EU everywhere. This time the Uk government should honour its promise to give us a vote.
40 Responses to “Confirmation that there is no shred of democracy in the EU”
John Redwood has been the Member of Parliament for Wokingham since 1987. First attending Kent College, Canterbury, he graduated from Magdalen College...
JR: “The Irish voted No, and that should be that. I hope the Irish vote it down even more heavily next time.”
Yes, of course it is outreagous. Now the EU elite imagine that with the new cold wind blowing through the Irish economy the appetite will be to clutch mummies coat tails closer. They may be right.
However, they have set the precedent of continious referendum, no decision is final.
A Tory government might offer another referendum on the ‘72 act, or Maastrict, again and again.
Yes I know, pigs might fly too.
A referendum as promised? Let’s not hold our collective breath.
Yes and the Conservative Party too, what was almost as stomach churning as Labour’s semantics over treaty and constitution was/is
the refusal of Cameron and Co. to guarantee an EU referendum under any and every circumstance. The blindingly obvious seems to bypass many politicians with of course exceptions like yourself, but the EU is an elephant in the room that will not go away. The 1975 referendum was to remain in the European Economic Commmunity, nothing about Union. We should have had a referendum whenever the name and aspirations were changed.
Robert Eve Reply:
December 11th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
I couldn’t agree more!!
T England Reply:
December 12th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Agreed!
rugfish Reply:
December 12th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Agreed!
James Morrison Reply:
December 12th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Absolutely right!
I can’t see any of the political elite on any side if the house taking us out of the EU, regardless of the result of a referendum. I think too many of them have too much to gain personally. I might be wrong, but it’s the only reason I can see why the wishes of the population are ignored time after time
DennisA Reply:
December 13th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I think the Conservatives are quietly hoping the Lisbon Constitution will be ratified and then they don’t have to bother. To say there will be a referundum only if Lisbon isn’t ratified is a cop out. The colleagues will work very hard behind the scenes to make sure we don’t get the chance.
I don’t want a referendum, I want full British Sovereignty restored to the British People and all the EU treaties torn up, if they can tear up Magna carta and our Bill of rights then they can tear up Lisbon.
We can no longer trust the electoral process in this country, One Judge has called it as more reminiscent of a banana republic.
Can you remind your parlimentary collegues that this country belongs to the British People and that you are our elected representatives put there to represent our views and wishes.
Further the surrender of British Sovereignty is an act of treason.
http://www.britsattheirbest.com/freedom/f_your_own_choice.htm
http://thejournal.parker-joseph.co.uk/blog/_archives/2007/10/21/3305358.html
Constitution
http://www.tpuc.org/node/65#comment-63
de Villiers Reply:
December 11th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
I’m not sure that is correct. The government is that of the monarch who exercise power on behalf of the crown.
It is not the British tradition and history that the country belongs to the people and that the elected representatives are there to represent our wishes.
The British constitution is that we elect MPs who then exercise -their- judgment on matters. They do not represent us rather than it is we who elect the MPs on the basis of their views.
Finally, it is unlikely that the surrender of British sovereignty amounts to treason if it is accepted by the government, Parliament and the monarch. If the Queen were to sign an Act passing into law the terms of the EU constitution which were passed by Parliament, then I cannot see how this could be treason – given that the power is that of the monarch to sign away.
James Morrison Reply:
December 12th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Hasn’t the Queen already signed Lisbon?
Ken Adams Reply:
December 13th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
It must be treason as all those involved have sworn allegiance to the Crown this was confirmed by no lesser person than Tony Blair who said
“The dilemma of a British Prime Minister over Europe is acute to the point of the ridiculous. Basically you have a choice: co-operate in Europe and you betray Britain; be unreasonable in Europe, be praised back home, and be utterly without influence in Europe. It’s sort of: isolation or treason.”
It is all about protecting the national sovereignty not undermining it, we are faced literally with a revolution against the people by the state.
Does the monarch own the country outright and literally have the power to give it away, because that would be the only way this argument could stand.
You are so right! Well noticed!
BUT two glimmers of real hope: some common sense from the German finance minister is most encouraging, as it really points up Labour financial incontinence.
And, secondly, the Irish millionaire, Declan Ganley has put his money into the new European Political Party, Libertas, which is being unrolled in the near future into several countries (but not this one?)
Well worth a Google this.
Do you know, if the EU really had a proper parliament where things could be discussed thoroughly, and the Central Committee was not a Socialist Praesidium, but more of an elected cabinet, I would really have to think very hard about being so against it.
Robert Eve Reply:
December 11th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
The new Libertas website clearly envisages candidates standing in the UK in the Euro elections next year.
While I support what Libertas managed to pull off in Ireland the trouble is that Declan Ganley wants to reform the EU rather than just say goodbye to it.
Looks like the EU elections will precede the 2nd referendum in Ireland. Here’s hoping the results in June encourage the Irish to vote NO again.
mikestallard Reply:
December 11th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
The Irish have a history of constitution making – indeed, that was the cause of their Independence. Unlike modern Englishmen and women, they may well appreciate what a bad constitution means and won’t be bamboozled into voting “Yes” just because that is what the Central praesidium wants.
I was so pleased that yesterday the Czech President told Danny Cohn-Bendit where to go when he started to behave like a Russian!
Good point about changing the treaty ex post meaning a legal requirement that it must be voted again by the British Parliament.
I cannot see how they expect to get the Irish to change their vote. Ireland may now be in recession but so is the whole EU & the Irish will not be treated like children told to go away & work out the correct answer.
Yes. It always struck me as odd that when a nation said “no”, they just had another referendum to get a “yes”. What a hollow result. This is the nature of centralization; the center decides and so to get that decision done, the individual choices of the members of the Union have to be over-ridden.
Basically, if the center is deciding, it means the members are *not* and have to accept decisions being made for them.
That is not freedom. Why do we have this? what’s the point? what benefits do we obtain which make it worth the sacrifice of our freedom to choose?
Of course, we face a similar problem on a smaller scale in the UK where the Labour Government has done to the UK much what the EU has done to the member states.
The more power you have in the center, the less freedom you have elsewhere. There is a finite amount of choice; if the center concentrates the supply of choice in its hands, then it makes decisions and other people have *no* choice; they, perforce, must accept what has been decided for them.
All sounds very theoretical, but the practical upshot is real injustice and real human suffering.
The recent issues where the NHS effectively banned cancer patients from buying their own drugs. The State has almost completely taken up the supply of choice for health care; it decides that we will get the NHS. And the NHS then decides what we will receive.
Why can’t I decide what health care I want? (Of course I can now – but it means paying twice, so I can’t actually, because it’s too expensive). And if I decided what health care I wanted, I could put whatever money I wanted into it and buy whatever drugs I like.
And there were people, for christs sake, who were *dying of cancer*, who had the State coming down on their back and saying “no, you will die, because we refuse to let you buy the drugs you need”.
Honour! Mr. Redwood, this lot do not know the meaning of the word
I have to say, were I an ardent treaty supporter, if my cause lost, that would be it. You are quite right, simply having endless votes until you get the “right” decision is a nonsense.
Imagine Mr Brown calling an election ahead of time, getting the “wrong” result and saying “Well lets try again with a different manifesto in 6 months”
Your position is dead right ~ renegotiate membership.
Mr Redwood, I agree totally with your view on the undemocratic EU. So why does the Conservative party still support our membership? I feel that to try and reform this unelected and corrupt institution is on par with trying to reform the mafia – it is a power block that exists to benefit those within the block and will not go quietly into the night because us mere ‘citizens’ do not agree with its actions.
The only way I can see for this country to retain its independence from the EU is to leave it.
Ganley is an EU (friend? ed). Don’t trust him.
mikestallard Reply:
December 11th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
May I recommend the long lecture he gave on U Tube? He believes in the EU and is against what he calls Euroscepticism. He says he, like Obama, believes in the “audacity of hope” and takes inspiration from the Latvian president (in his 20s) who got the country going after the Russians. He wants a 25 page constitution and accountable politicians.
There are lots of funny people out there, you know. Just have a look at some of the trolls on the comments section of Daniel Hannan’s blog to see what I mean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n4LkWiQ-Fc&feature=related
The Irish will have at least two votes; Maybe more if they say no again.
I just hope that this attitude of Nanny knows best by their government and the EUSSR, will lead to an even bigger no vote.
With the early signs of cracks appearing in European unity, let’s hope the current economic decline leads to the demise of the EUSSR project, as each member state shows it is in fact a separate country that wishes to put its own national interests first ahead of the EUSSR’s.
Voting and voters huh? Does your wife agree with this vote or do you hide it. Absolutely disgusting! You should be ashamed. If you had a vote for a strike and that vote was carried unambiguously and unanimously. Would you need a vote to go back to work? Answers via this site kids. The lack of answers from the regulars will be noted. This is not a private ballot. Can’t touch this…
So which way would Bob Spink vote in a referendum anyway?
Pollitics is a dirty business.
We already have a Patriotic British Party in he UK which is Totally committed to total withdrawal from the EU and it’s not EUKIP.
I strongly suspect that this Declan guy is being put into the public conciousness precisely because said party is gaining considerable support as British People begin to realise that the Leadership of all three main parties in the UK are all Pro EU.
when Libertas start getting air time on the BBC and others then I will know.
Western European Peoples have been sold out by their elites for the promise of money and Absolute Power.
Vladimir Bukovsky warns of an EU dictatorship, ‘they are creating a new race of people’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2Ql3wOGcU
mikestallard Reply:
December 12th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Did you see him on Newsnight this week?
Conspiracy theorists proven right yet again. Mps and clueless journalists, with their media studies degrees, wrong as usual.
Today is the anniversary of the hold a referendum protests in that debacle of a parliament. A fitting time to announce Ireland must have two referendum while Britain must have none
Maybe John. But maybe also we should join Germany as North Germany lander. Their politicians – both right and left have the guts to oppose Brown on tax and waste. It’s very depressing for anyone who dislikes the EU democratic deficit to see the collapse of UK £ v Euro. David Cameron will not get my vote – too much Mr Nice Guy while our retirement income from prudent savings over 40 years collapses by thousands per annum. Thank God we are already retired, or our income would be halved again if I was 65 this year – decimated funds and derisory annuity rate. The market was 6600 or something when Blair got in. And remind me about the pound! Not maybe the time to bang on about Europe.
Totaly agree with you john. Oh and by the way when did Conservative Central Office move to Germany. There is more opposition from the Germans than the Tories, well what we can hear anyway.
There can surely be no reason why David Cameron cannot announce a policy to give a referendum to the British people or to say we will not endorse it.
Parliament approved the treaty on the basis that Ireland would approve it, so parliament should respect the terms at the time it was deliberated.
If unanimous decision making along with the democratic decision of an electorate are to be overridden, ignored or bargained with so as to fundamentally change the basis on which our parliament gave its decision, then to proceed without re-visiting it would give it even less legitimacy than it has now.
If it continues to go ahead without the expressed wish of the British people then our own parliament will lack legitimacy. Our parliament would be like a festering carbuncle on the nation and if that is the case then it should be amputated.
To be honest, I didn’t think democracy was alive in the EU before this incident so at least I don’t have to deal with the element of surprise that some people are demonstrating in the media.
Lucky me?
http://www.lettersfromatory.com
The most pertinent comment is that the treaty has changed, therefore all govts need to ratify it again. For example, if we’ve signed up to a common EU army (have we?), we signed on the basis that all EU members will pull their weight. If, now, one of them is able to duck out of defence obligations, leaving us to carry an unfair share of the burden, then that part of the treaty is not valid, if not all of it. The Irish are being given guarantees on tax independence. Do we not have the same? This is key; we might be under obligation on an area of tax, while the Irish are free to give themselves a competitive advantage. The treaty is not valid if it changes for anyone.
Furthermore, it appears that whenever a country rejects a treaty, various sweeteners and opt outs are offered. Why, therefore, does any country sign up 1st time out? Surely every govt owes it to its people to get the best deal possible. What goodies would we have been offered if we’d rejected it the 1st time?
Robert Eve Reply:
December 12th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
We don’t want goodies – we just want out!!
You will vote, vote, and vote again until we get the result we need!
What happens if they vote yes, do they have to vote again to make sure, the EU is not Democratic, they will not accept no for an answer, in anything.
The New world Order for dummies
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLPG_HplrA
And now for a World Government.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/financial-times-editorial-admits-agenda-for-dictatorial-world-government.html
drip drip drip.
Warning! This is a rude one.
What part of F**k Off don’t they understand?
(You really need to be Anglo Saxon English – or strangely Irish – to really understand this)
I agree with the Irish Government. If the Government firmly believes that it is in the best interests of the nation to move forward with a constitution, then of course it should try again. It should reform its arguments, strengthen its case and put the matter back before the people.
Electorally, the Conservatives will not win votes by being anti-European. Strong leaders, such as John Major (who unlike Thatcher didn’t dither about the place all the time on the European issue), knew that Britain could play a strong part in the European Union. Instead of being scared of the European Union, it’s time for us to let our businesses embrace the continent and start competing economically to be the best.
John Redwood’s argument, with respect, is false. It’s like saying that if the Conservatives lost the General Election, they should respect the people and not try again. Politics isn’t that simple and politicians should fight for what they believe in, and communicate that to the electorate, but listen to the electorate at the same time.
Reply: Fine – let’s have a 2nd referendum in France and Holland then
DennisA Reply:
December 13th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
If there is common currency, common taxes, common laws, common government, you then have a state, the ultimate long term objective. Where then is the competition?
Come the run-up to the European elections, is Cameron going to tell us (again) which grouping the Conservative MEPs are going to join? Should we believe him this time?
Reply: Yes he will. He has made clear we will have nothing to do with the Federalist EPP, and no Conservative will be able this time to stand on a platform of support for them or federalism.